Who is the real Judas?

[Kid Collins]

Clark doesn't have a solution for the situation because he's only known about it for 24 hours! Give the man some time!

And give Chloe the same courtesy. She just found out Davis survived when she went down the basement. The ep ended afterwards.

We don't know what Chloe will do yet.



So if that's really Chloe's excuse for not telling Clark then it's a really bad one. I mean Chloe can tame the beast, yes, we understand that, but why can't she do that while having Clark try to figure out something else in the outside world? I mean she locked herself in the basement for crying out loud. How is that a solution? That's just buying her time but in the long run will not serve to help out anyone.

We do know that Chloe being with Davis prevented him from turning to Doomsday so Davis wasn't lying to Chloe.

Maybe Chloe knows that Clark doesn't stand a chance against Doomsday and since she just found out that Davis is alive and he told her that she calms his beast...she's gonna go with that (staying him) in the meantime before she can come up with a better solution.

It's all too soon for us to judge Chloe on whether she did the right thing or not.

[Amelie]

By keeping him safe? If she told him, Clark would be dead. End of. Clark would have sought out Davis, and Dooms would have killed him.



Chloe has no way of knowing that Clark would be dead if he faced of Doomsday. That's what she thinks but she also thought that killing Davis with greenk was a good idea and we all know how that turned out. So right now, Chloe and Davis together trying to kill the beast has only ended up in making the beast stronger than before. But yeah, good luck to Chloe and Davis as they continue to resolve this without bringing in Clark, you know the person who time after time has figured out ways to save the world when all odds were against him...

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


And give Chloe the same courtesy. She just found out Davis survived when she went down the basement. The ep ended afterwards.



Chloe had already attempted to resolve the situation, remember? She sided with Davis in thinking that a green kryptonite death would work. That was her solution to the problem and that is what she believed would work. When it didn't work, Chloe should have known that this situation was harder than she thought. Why then would she have not gone to Clark? Yes, she's afraid but does she honestly think she can save the world on her own? I mean, this is the destroyer and yet Chloe thinks she can somehow stop him on her own? That's silly. She should have told Clark what was going on and also informed him about her ability to help Davis tame the beast. Then together they could have tried to figure out something. That is logical. What Chloe is doing is illogical, dangerous, and quite frankly very, very stupid.

[Smallville Vamp]

how could i possibly tell you how something looked from your perspective?

My point exactly, glad to see at least THIS didn't escape you. :\

[Amelie]

We do know that Chloe being with Davis prevented him from turning to Doomsday so Davis wasn't lying to Chloe.
Did I say that he was lying? No, I said that she can tame the beast and we the audience understand that. Read my post again.


Maybe Chloe knows that Clark doesn't stand a chance against Doomsday and since she just found out that Davis is alive and he told her that she calms his beast...she's gonna go with that (staying him) in the meantime before she can come up with a better solution. The better solution was already painfully obvious. Tell Davis she would stay with him, but first call Clark to tell him what he can do. Re-enlist the Justice league (because remember they were supposedly holding his body) to try to figure out what to do. Instead of doing this obvious, logical and smart thing, she locks herself in the basement with him. :confused:


It's all too soon for us to judge Chloe on whether she did the right thing or not.It's not about it being right or wrong, per se, just completely stupid. Chloe could have calmed the beast and let Clark know. She could have worked together on this as a team with her best friend and hero and with the Justice League. Instead she opted to try to save the world on her own again. Bad choice. Bad, bad choice.

[Tompouce]

not at all I'm right behind you!
Thanks. Because we speak about betrayal thinking Chloe does this for Clark but to me, her feelings for Davis are a part of her decision.
If I am not right, to me it would be like a sacrifice. So even if Clark will feel it like a betrayal, I don't know. Think, if your best friend does something you don't understand but the purpose is to protect you, is it a betrayal ? Or a sacrifice ? It sounds more like a sacrifice. But what disturbs me most about Clark's reactions is the way he looked at Chloe when she put her hand on the window close to Davis's hand. Clark seems absolutely shaken by this. To me, he clearly sees there is something between Chloe and Davis and he can't understand it. The betrayal could be this. How your best friend can be in love with a monster/a serial killer ?

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----



It's not about it being right or wrong, per se, just completely stupid. Chloe could have calmed the beast and let Clark know. She could have worked together on this as a team with her best friend and hero and with the Justice League. Instead she opted to try to save the world on her own again. Bad choice. Bad, bad choice.
For the moment, it is her choice. It doesn't mean it won't change

[lillie_poo_pod]

Betrayel is I guess a big word, but it's lying and that lie will result bad in their friendship. Clark has lied a lot before but he has always tried to lie for good, in order to protect his friends.
What Chloe is doing now, is the same damn thing Clark's done. He lies to protect the people he loves. Chloe's doing that.

In this scenario Chloe can't know if this will protect Clark. It can go both ways...
In this scenario, she knows she's the one that can tame Dooms. In her mind, she's sure that this can protect Clark. Just like Clark was so sure mindwiping Chloe, would protect her.

[Amelie]

For the moment, it is her choice. It doesn't mean it won't change

Sure, I can agree with that. It's my opinion that wasn't a smart choice but maybe she'll change her mind in the next episode. We'll just have to wait and see, I guess! ;)

[Tompouce]

Sure, I can agree with that. It's my opinion that wasn't a smart choice but maybe she'll change her mind in the next episode. We'll just have to wait and see, I guess! ;)
Yes, we have to wait, as usual...SIGH;)

[Ritza]

Well the creator of the thread speculated that Chloe may be the one who betrays Clark in the end. He didn't state that Chloe had already betrayed him, because clearly she has not. Even when she locked the door, although I think that was a horrible and quite frankly stupid decision, that did not make Chloe a traitor and certainly did not cast her as Judas. But further down the line, is there a possibility that Chloe could betray Clark? Sure there is.

Now, if this was another character who had never betrayed Clark before and this character cared for Clark as much or more as Chloe does I would have said, "No. There is not a single chance that she would betray Clark," but the truth of matter is that Chloe has betrayed Clark in the past and so she is fully able to do so. Betrayal is a definite possibility and those who says it could never happen are wrong. Because it has happened before.

Now will the betrayal happen for certain? I'm not sure. I'm actually waiting for the upcoming episode to shine more light on all of this, but I'm not ruling anything out right now because Chloe's definitely walking a very dangerous path and her heart has clouded her judgment in the past and right now she's as romantically confused as ever and emotionally not in a positive place.

Your post is scary Amelie but it's very truthful too. I don't like a lot of what PS3 have done with Chloe this season and I wouldn't put it past them to turn her into a Judas in the name of Davis. Right now I have some hope because Chloe does not agree with Davis but I'm scared about what she will do later on. I like Chloe but not Davis because he's not good for her. :( :( :(

[Dustmite]

She's never betrayed him before. Never. She gave Lionel nothing. Nothing at all.

There is no Chloe in the comics. Clark still dies. The point? Clark is going to die. No matter what Chloe does to stop it to prevent it. Because that's what she's doing. She on his side. She's doing it for him.

[Lilah]

I think Judas' way to Heck was paved with (what he thought was good intentions). The silver was what the Romans paid him because he went to them as an informer. Judas believed in Jesus as the Messiah, and wanted him to rid them of the Romans. He mistakenly thought he would force Jesus' hand by selling him out, and then he was consumed with guilt so he hung himself.

You could draw Tess into this analogy by saying she wants Clark to reach his destiny and save mankind.

But then, there are so many counterarguments so both Chloe and Tess are valid.

I think that where that quote comes from. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Judas was one of Jesus' disciples, he KNEW he was God, yet he betrayed him. In fact in the Gospel of Matthew, Judas tried to return the pieces of silver, but the pharasees could not take it back due to Jewish law so he hung himself because of the guilt. He didn't do it because of greed. It was a prophecy, that needed to be fulfilled. Chloe sealed her fate last night. She's Judas Iscariot.

[Kalista]

Chloe decided to stay with Davis only after her blackmailed her by saying her presence would prevent him from killing Clark. She's staying with Davis for Clark's benefit so there is no betrayal. I don't see how Chloe sacrificing her freedom for Clark translates into betrayal.

[Mickey_Bickey]

This seems to fit nicely in with the way the discussion is going. Some believe Chloe's motives are pure, others less so, but her actions can't really be argued. Nicely put Mickey_Bickey

Thank you, Amalie! When you look at this logically and apply the actual Judas/Jesus relationship to this how, the intentions and motives do not apply. It's the action. Tess didn't go into the "why" but the "what", and the only person who fits the "Judas" mold in Clark's life is Chloe.

Chloe is not just staying with Davis to protect Clark. She was shown in the beginning of this episode giggling and flirting with Davis and then admitting to Clark she was having feelings for him.

She also agonized over his death and seemed devastated when she placed her hand to his. These were deliberate words and actions. The Judas is Chloe.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


This. I'm trying to figure out why it's even bought up. Because Chloe's his bestfriend? Whatever. Tess was talking about Davis being Judas, it was obvious. And since when does sacrificing your life to save the life of your friend ,and on a greater scale the world, make you a betrayer?


Only someone who is closest to Clark can be the betrayer. Davis does not have the relationship with Clark to betray him. It must be someone who Clark trusts, otherwise it's not betrayal.

And yes, the part I bolded about Chloe being Clark's best friend is the only one who can compare to Judas as he was part of Jesus' inner most circle, the Apostles.

[Dustmite]

Tess NEVER meant that Chloe was Judas.


Chloe decided to stay with Davis only after her blackmailed her by saying her presence would prevent him from killing Clark. She's staying with Davis for Clark's benefit so there is no betrayal. I don't see how Chloe sacrificing her freedom for Clark translates into betrayal.

Exactly. There is no betrayel on Chloe's part.

[Tess is Smokin]

Tess NEVER meant that Chloe was Judas.



Exactly. There is no betrayel on Chloe's part.



How could you be sure of that? did tess explain specifically who she was implying was Judas?

[Night_Hawk90]

Thank you, Amalie! When you look at this logically and apply the actual Judas/Jesus relationship to this how, the intentions and motives do not apply. It's the action. Tess didn't go into the "why" but the "what", and the only person who fits the "Judas" mold in Clark's life is Chloe.

Chloe is not just staying with Davis to protect Clark. She was shown in the beginning of this episode giggling and flirting with Davis and then admitting to Clark she was having feelings for him.

She also agonized over his death and seemed devastated when she placed her hand to his. These were deliberate words and actions. The Judas is Chloe.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----




Only someone who is closest to Clark can be the betrayer. Davis does not have the relationship with Clark to betray him. It must be someone who Clark trusts, otherwise it's not betrayal.

And yes, the part I bolded about Chloe being Clark's best friend is the only one who can compare to Judas as he was part of Jesus' inner most circle, the Apostles.

ITA, it is quite obvious imo who the real judas is, as you or others have mentioned chloe fits judas description dead on.

[Dustmite]

How could you be sure of that? did tess explain specifically who she was implying was Judas?

How can you be so sure that it is Chloe. Did Tess say, "Chloe is your Judas"

[Autumn]

Chloe as Judas is the MOST ridiculous thing I've heard yet. Absolutely absurd. Everything she did last night was to save Clark, although I believe she also harbors deep feelings for Davis. Who can blame her? And I certainly don't think she was blackmailed. She could have walked away, Davis merely asked her to stay with him. No forcing involved. All Davis did was state the facts: she is his and Clark's last hope. Anyway, the Judas conversation made no sense to begin with. I didn't mind the savior comments, but the whole conversation was just over the top and made Tess look like a Clark fanatic.

[Kalista]

How could you be sure of that? did tess explain specifically who she was implying was Judas?

Yes.


Tess: There is a savior among us. You are here to betray him.

Davis: I haven't betrayed anyone.

Tess: I finally realized that until you fulfill your destiny he won't have this great challenge to overcome. He cannot become the world's savior without triumphing over the world's destroyer.

[Autumn]

Tess did specifically call Davis Judas which makes no sense.

[Davis Bloome]

Judas in the way that he will lead Clark to his destiny to become superman, just as it was Jesus destiny to die for our sins

[Tess is Smokin]

Yes.

how could davis possibly betray clark when he doesn't have clarks trust to begin with?

[Autumn]

Judas in the way that he will lead Clark to his destiny to become superman, just as it was Jesus destiny to die for our sins

In that way, it makes somewhat sense, which is what I think the writers were going for.

[Kalista]

how could davis possibly betray clark when he doesn't have clarks trust to begin with?

See Davis Bloome's post above because I think that is what Tess meant. Tess believes that Davis will be the catalyst to Clark's destiny.

[Tess is Smokin]

See Davis Bloome's post above because I think that is what Tess meant. Tess believes that Davis will be the catalyst to Clark's destiny.


still doesn't answer my question about the betrayal part.

[Night_Hawk90]

See Davis Bloome's post above because I think that is what Tess meant. Tess believes that Davis will be the catalyst to Clark's destiny.

how can davis betray clark when theyre not even friends to begin with, this is why smallville should never delve into religion because they have no idea wtf theyre talking about

[Tess is Smokin]

how can davis betray clark when theyre not even friends to begin with, this is why smallville should never delve into religion because they have no idea wtf theyre talking about


word!

[Kalista]

It does so we will just have to move on.

[Timester]

See Davis Bloome's post above because I think that is what Tess meant. Tess believes that Davis will be the catalyst to Clark's destiny.

Which Chloe also fits. For now on, Chloe is part of that catalyst. It is Chloe's action that will lead to Clark's ultimate demise and rising.

[Kalista]

how can davis betray clark when theyre not even friends to begin with, this is why smallville should never delve into religion because they have no idea wtf theyre talking about

That's Tess' warped interpretation of the conflict between Clark and Davis.. This episode made it clear that Chloe's priorities lie with Clark. There's no setup for Chloe to betray Clark.

[Tess is Smokin]

clark is "jesus" Chloe is "Judas" and davis is "Rome" there we have it people.

[Dustmite]

It does so we will just have to move on.

Smallville rarely makes sense so I'm not going to worry about Tess meaning that it was Chloe when IMO it was clear that she was talking about Davis and only Davis.


Which Chloe also fits. For now on, Chloe is part of that catalyst. It is Chloe's action that will lead to Clark's ultimate demise and rising.

With or without her Davis is going to kill Clark. She's protecting him. That's all.

I believe all the religious stuff was thrown in for one reason only and that's to set up Clark's death and resurrection.

[Night_Hawk90]

That's Tess' warped interpretation of the conflict between Clark and Davis.. This episode made it clear that Chloe's priorities lie with Clark. There's no setup for Chloe to betray Clark.

i actually dont think this episode made it clear that chloe's priorities are with clark if it did than chloe would have told clark that davis is still alive (yes i know it could still happen in the next episode) i think this "episode" showed chloe's priorities are with davis, but again thats jmo

[Dustmite]

i actually dont think this episode made it clear that chloe's priorities are with clark if it did than chloe would have told clark that davis is still alive (yes i know it could still happen in the next episode) i think this "episode" showed chloe's priorities are with davis, but again thats jmo

Which is why she tried to kill the dude :rolleyes:

[workshyslacker]

clark is "jesus" Chloe is "Judas" and davis is "Rome" there we have it people.

Why is Davis "Rome"?

Does he lie down and let people walk all over him? Or his is body a battleground? :\

[Autumn]

Smallville rarely makes sense so I'm not going to worry about Tess meaning that it was Chloe when IMO it was clear that she was talking about Davis and only Davis.



With or without her Davis is going to kill Clark. She's protecting him. That's all.

I believe all the religious stuff was thrown in for one reason only and that's to set up Clark's death and resurrection.

I agree. It was meant to foreshadow Clark's death at the end of the season.

[Herod]

Which Chloe also fits. For now on, Chloe is part of that catalyst. It is Chloe's action that will lead to Clark's ultimate demise and rising.
Right. It was Chloe who literally pulled the lever on the green kryptonite and therefore she's the one whose action made Davis more unstoppable than ever. And what PS3 are doing is dramatic irony where we as the audience can see that Chloe is the real Judas (or soon to be Judas) but Tess thinks it's Davis. Boy will she be in for a surprise! :lol:

[marcella]

The real Judas to me is the person who okayed the Lana storyline this season

:rotfl: Best comment ever

[Tess is Smokin]

Why is Davis "Rome"?

Does he lie down and let people walk all over him? Or his is body a battleground? :\



Didn't "Rome" kill jesus? not actuall rome but you know what i mean >_>...

[Kalista]

i actually dont think this episode made it clear that chloe's priorities are with clark if it did than chloe would have told clark that davis is still alive (yes i know it could still happen in the next episode) i think this "episode" showed chloe's priorities are with davis, but again thats jmo

Chloe was on her way out the door, most likely to warn Clark IMO. She only hesitated when Davis told her that her presence could save Clark's life.

Yeah, her priorities were all about Davis. I could really see that when she dumped the vat of Kryptonite on Davis to save Clark.:rolleyes:

[Dustmite]

Right. It was Chloe who literally pulled the lever on the green kryptonite and therefore she's the one whose action made Davis more unstoppable than ever. And what PS3 are doing is dramatic irony where we as the audience can see that Chloe is the real Judas (or soon to be Judas) but Tess thinks it's Davis. Boy will she be in for a surprise! :lol:

She should have let them fight it out there and then. It would have been much better :\

[ginevrakent]

I just want to point out that it was Judas' betrayal that was the catalyst. It was the Romans/Pilate that carried out his fate. Therefore, on Smallville, Chloe is the catalyst (Judas) and Doomsday (Pilate) is the one that ultimately executes the fated death blows. Furthermore, Judas was a trusted friend of Jesus not an enemy like Tess or Davis.

[Timester]

With or without her Davis is going to kill Clark. She's protecting him. That's all.

Sending Davis on a Queen Industries rocket to Moon is protecting Clark. Having dramatic music and a slow motion scene of closing a door is not.

AND I said part. Tess is the other part.

[workshyslacker]

Didn't rome kill jesus?

I skipped Bible Class, sorry.

[Autumn]

She should have let them fight it out there and then. It would have been much better :\

Well when Clark died, at least Chloe wouldn't have been blamed for trying to save him and suddenly be labeled Judas. :rolleyes: Next Chloe will be compared to Satan.

[Dustmite]

I just want to point out that it was Judas' betrayal that was the catalyst. It was the Romans/Pilate that carried out his fate. Therefore, on Smallville, Chloe is the catalyst (Judas) and Doomsday (Pilate) is the one that ultimately executes the fated death blows. Furthermore, Judas was a trusted friend of Jesus not an enemy like Tess or Davis.

No she's not. It was going to happen regardless as Infamous showed.

[Timester]

She should have let them fight it out there and then. It would have been much better :\

Space rocket. It isn't like Davis would die anyway.

[Dustmite]

Sending Davis on a Queen Industries rocket to Moon is protecting Clark. Having dramatic music and a slow motion scene of closing a door is not.

AND I said part. Tess is the other part.


But we know that wouldn't happen. What would happen is the fight and teh deaths.

[Herod]

Smallville rarely makes sense so I'm not going to worry about Tess meaning that it was Chloe when IMO it was clear that she was talking about Davis and only Davis.
You are missing the point. It doesn't matter what Tess believes. She's obviously wrong and Davis let's her know. He tells her that he hasn't betrayed anyone and he's correct. Not only that but he cannot betray Clark because Clark and he are not friends. Tess was obviously overlooking Chloe because she has the guise of a friend. And that's where the dramatic irony element comes in. The characters believe one thing but the audience knows the truth. So yes, Chloe has not betrayed Clark yet, which is the operative word YET. Give her time though...it's coming.

[Autumn]

Chloe will NEVER be Judas. I thought this episode made it clear that she would never betray Clark but whatever.

[Sports72Xtrm]

You know in the spoilers they say that something is going to change Chloe's relationship with Clark. Watching Eternal, I'm glad Clark addressed Chloe's killer instinct. Clark asks her if they should talk about the killing of Davis and Chloe was unapologetic. He then doesn't pursue it anymore, I'm surprised he was so lenient about it. I guess he is chalking it up to self defense. But with Chloe keeping Davis in her basement, will she be able to control the beast? Or does she even plan to. I don't think so because the spoiler for Stilleto says she's going to lure a villian who knows something about Clark to Davis and have him kill him. I think Clark will see how Chloe's unsavory methods to protect him and will finally do something about it I hope. So yeah I believe a betrayal in friendship is coming in their future.

[Timester]

But we know that wouldn't happen. What would happen is the fight and teh deaths.

Which makes Chloe part of the catalyst. Sorry, but that's how things work.

[Herod]

She should have let them fight it out there and then. It would have been much better :\
Obviously that would have been better. Chloe getting involved in all this has only made things continually worse.

[Dustmite]

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter what Tess believes. She's obviously wrong and Davis let's her know. He tells her that he hasn't betrayed anyone and he's correct. Not only that but he cannot betray Clark because Clark and he are not friends. Tess was obviously overlooking Chloe because she has the guise of a friend. And that's where the dramatic irony element comes in. The characters believe one thing but the audience knows the truth. So yes, Chloe has not betrayed Clark yet, which is the operative word YET. Give her time though...it's coming.

And unless you're writing the scripts, I choose not to believe you. There is no guise. She IS his friend and it's his best interests that have her in that position. I'm part of the audience too and I don't see the truth you're painting.

[Autumn]

And unless you're writing the scripts, I choose not to believe you. There is no guise. She IS his friend and it's his best interests that have her in that position. I'm part of the audience too and I don't see the truth you're painting.

I don't see that truth either.

[Tess is Smokin]

I skipped Bible Class, sorry.

Join the club :P,


All im sayin is Judas Kill jesus he just betrayed him which led to his death. but it was actually the romans who killed him.

[Dustmite]

Obviously that would have been better. Chloe getting involved in all this has only made things continually worse.

How. Would Clark not have died. And she didn't choose to get invloved. Death is death. How is it worse one way or another?

[Autumn]

How. Would Clark not have died. And she didn't choose to get invloved. Death is death. How is it worse one way or another?

Don't you get it? Chloe is evil incarnate. If Clark died without Chloe betraying him, who is to blame? Clark? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Dustmite]

Don't you get it? Chloe is evil incarnate. If Clark died without Chloe betraying him, who is to blame? Clark? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

It certainly seems that way. I've said it before. She saves him. She's evil. She doesn't. She's evil.

[Kalista]

Don't you get it? Chloe is evil incarnate.

If it's written often enough then it must be true. Right? Perhaps she can be willed into betraying Clark.:lol:

[Timester]

Tess didn't talked about Judas as the betrayer, she talked Judas as the catalyst of the First Coming of the Savior, which is absolutely true. The catalyst that makes Clark become the savior.

That's where Chloe and Tess become part, Chloe by keeping Davis and Tess by using the orb to force the situation.

[Tess is Smokin]

If it's written often enough then it must be true. Right? Perhaps she can be willed into betraying Clark.:lol:


maybe it's all brainiac again.

[Timester]

Don't you get it? Chloe is evil incarnate. If Clark died without Chloe betraying him, who is to blame? Clark? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[mod edit] No one here said that Chloe was evil.

[ginevrakent]

Chloe will NEVER be Judas. I thought this episode made it clear that she would never betray Clark but whatever.

Judas thought he was doing the right thing when he betrayed Jesus. In his eyes, it wasn't a betrayal. Chloe thinks that Clark will not do what is necessary to protect himself just like Judas thought Jesus was not doing enough to protect himself and the Jews by raising a rebellion against Rome. Judas did not think that Jesus would be crucified. He thought that Jesus would see the Romans coming for him and would be moved to protect himself with all of his divine powers and lead a revolution. In short, Judas thought he was doing the right thing and he did not think that Jesus would ever be hurt by his actions.

Chloe doesn't buy into Clark's moral code 100 percent and often keeps secrets from him. So she disagrees with him and has a motive to "betray" Clark in order to protect him, but it backfires big time because she thinks she knows better than Clark just like Judas thought Jesus needed a nudge in the right direction.

[marcella]

I think Chloe is Judas

[Dustmite]

If it's written often enough then it must be true. Right? Perhaps she can be willed into betraying Clark.:lol:

*Sigh*

[Timester]

No matter what Chloe does, she is EVIL!! Whatever.

[mod edit]

[Autumn]

If it's written often enough then it must be true. Right? Perhaps she can be willed into betraying Clark.:lol:

Must be. :rolleyes:

[Herod]

And unless you're writing the scripts, I choose not to believe you. There is no guise. She IS his friend and it's his best interests that have her in that position. I'm part of the audience too and I don't see the truth you're painting.
Hey we're are all expressing our opinions so you don't have to believe anything and no one here is writing the scripts so I don't see why that has any relevance in this discussion. Chloe may have good intentions but she's making the situation worse with those good intentions. Not to mention that often the road to hell IS paved with good intentions... Moreover, friendship means nothing when it comes to betrayals. Friends betray one another all the time. In fact, check out season 3 of Smallville when Chloe betrayed Clark. She was his friend back then wasn't she? And did that stop her from betraying him? No. So how can you be so confident that she won't betray him again? As it stands Chloe is not technically Judas but I have a feeling that we won't feel the same way by the end of the series.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Judas thought he was doing the right thing when he betrayed Jesus. In his eyes, it wasn't a betrayal. Chloe thinks that Clark will not do what is necessary to protect himself just like Judas did not think Jesus was not doing enough to protect himself and the Jews by raising a rebellion against Rome. Judas did not think that Jesus would be crucified. He thought that Jesus would see the Romans coming for him and would be moved to protect himself with all of his divine powers and lead a revolution. In short, Judas thought he was doing the right thing and he did not think that Jesus would ever be hurt by his actions.

Chloe doesn't buy into Clark's moral code 100 percent and often keeps secrets from him. So she disagrees with him and has a motive to "betray" Clark in order to protect him, but it backfires big time because she thinks she knows better than Clark just like Judas thought Jesus needed a nudge in the right direction.

Never thought about it that way. I guess that does kind of make Chloe a Judas if you think about it. Hm...interesting. I guess it does kind of add up to all of Tess' betrayal quotes. The more you love someone the harder the betrayal is. And Clark definitely has a lot of affection for Chloe.

[Dustmite]

No matter what Chloe does, she is EVIL!! Whatever.

I don't for one micro-second believe that the show mean to portray her as Judas. At all.

[Tess is Smokin]

How. Would Clark not have died. And she didn't choose to get invloved. Death is death. How is it worse one way or another? I think that Chloe getting involved is totally unnecessary and just continues making stuff even more complicated... she's not a hero she should stop trying to be one so much IMO. Clark doesn't need savin.



hey timester that Avatar is that from Superman:Red Son? (or what ever he name was)

[Timester]

I don't for one micro-second believe that the show mean to portray her as Judas. At all.

Because it isn't. It's portaying her as a catalyst, just like Judas.

[ginevrakent]

No matter what Chloe does, she is EVIL!! Whatever.

She is not evil. That is not the point. The point is that in doing something she believes to be good, she makes a tragic mistake. Keeping the beast at bay is noble and good, but thinking that she can do it forever and hiding it from Clark is a mistake that is going to bite her in the butt in the end.

[Timester]

hey timester that Avatar is that from Superman:Red Son? (or what ever he name was)

Yep.

[Dustmite]

Hey we're are all expressing our opinions so you don't have to believe anything and no one here is writing the scripts so I don't see why that has any relevance in this discussion. Chloe may have good intentions but she's making the situation worse with those good intentions. Not to mention that often the road to hell IS paved with good intentions... Moreover, friendship means nothing when it comes to betrayals. Friends betray one another all the time. In fact, check out season 3 of Smallville when Chloe betrayed Clark. She was his friend back then wasn't she? And did that stop her from betraying him? No. So how can you be so confident that she won't betray him again? As it stands Chloe is not technically Judas but I have a feeling that we won't feel the same way by the end of the series.

She didn't betray him. She gave Lionel nothing. She couldn't go through with it.

What should Chloe do? Have bad intentions? Lead Doomsday to Clark and ask him to put them all out of their misery. Let's face, nothing Chloe will do will please everyone and those that want to see her as someone to blame will.

[Tess is Smokin]

Yep.


do you recommend that comic? im still uncertain.

[Jack-El49]

No matter what Chloe does, she is EVIL!! Whatever.

I think Jimmy would agree with that.

[Timester]

What should Chloe do? Have bad intentions? Lead Doomsday to Clark and ask him to put them all out of their misery. Let's face, nothing Chloe will do will please everyone and those that want to see her as someone to blame will.

Space rocket.

You keep asking, I keep answering it to you. :p

[Dustmite]

I think Jimmy would agree with that.

Good. Let the divorce roll.

[ginevrakent]

She didn't betray him. She gave Lionel nothing. She couldn't go through with it.

Judas gave back his 30 pieces of silver.

[Timester]

do you recommend that comic? im still uncertain.

Yes, it's the best Superman novel/Elseworld.

[Herod]

No matter what Chloe does, she is EVIL!! Whatever.
You are the only one that keeps on tossing the word EVIL around and you are the only one that says that whatever Chloe does is evil. Maybe if you say that enough times it will be true. But for now, it's not true. People here are talking about Judas not because they are being extremists in their views but because the episode itself brought up that reference and some people see the reference being a way for the producers to play up the dramatic irony of the situation where characters believe Davis to be Judas but in reality the audience sees that the real Judas is actually Chloe. You may disagree and that's fine but you don't have to be so flippant about it with all your comments.

[Tess is Smokin]

I think Jimmy would agree with that.


who can blame him? he was right all along.

[Herod]

I don't for one micro-second believe that the show mean to portray her as Judas. At all.
That is your opinion. Other people obviously disagree.

[Dustmite]

You are the only one that keeps on tossing the word EVIL around and you are the only one that says that whatever Chloe does is evil. Maybe if you say that enough times it will be true. But for now, it's not true. People here are talking about Judas not because they are being extremists in their views but because the episode itself brought up that reference and some people see the reference being a way for the producers to play up the dramatic irony of the situation where characters believe Davis to be Judas but in reality the audience sees that the real Judas is actually Chloe. You may disagree and that's fine but you don't have to be so flippant about it with all your comments.

But here's the thing. I don't think they were going for dramatic irony. I don't think they were trying to convince the audience that Chloe is Judas at all.

[Tess is Smokin]

You are the only one that keeps on tossing the word EVIL around and you are the only one that says that whatever Chloe does is evil. Maybe if you say that enough times it will be true. But for now, it's not true. People here are talking about Judas not because they are being extremists in their views but because the episode itself brought up that reference and some people see the reference being a way for the producers to play up the dramatic irony of the situation where characters believe Davis to be Judas but in reality the audience sees that the real Judas is actually Chloe. You may disagree and that's fine but you don't have to be so flippant about it with all your comments.



great post if i may say so.

[Sports72Xtrm]

You have to admit, when Chloe is "protecting" Clark, it seems a little Lex Luthorish. I mean pouring Kryptonite rain, putting villians that know to much into a coma...It just doesn't look well:o

[Timester]

But here's the thing. I don't think they were going for dramatic irony. I don't think they were trying to convince the audience that Chloe is Judas at all.

Not Judas the Betrayer, but Judas the Catalyst. That's what Tess' speech meant. Nothing else.

[Tess is Smokin]

You have to admit, when Chloe is "protecting" Clark, it seems a little Lex Luthorish. I mean pouring Kryptonite rain, putting villians that know to much into a coma...It just doesn't look well:o


Coma? she killed Sebastian.

Chloe is a murderer.

[Kalista]

But here's the thing. I don't think they were going for dramatic irony. I don't think they were trying to convince the audience that Chloe is Judas at all.


Especially since the writers had Davis ask Tess to clarify what she was talking about and according to her interpretation he is Judas.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Coma? she killed Sebastian.
Yeah well you know what I mean

[Dustmite]

Not Judas the Betrayer, but Judas the Catalyst. That's what Tess' speech meant. Nothing else.

Tess may have meant that but the talk on this thread is of betrayal. Questioning Chloe's loyalty to Clark after this episode? :\

[Tess is Smokin]

Yeah well you know what I mean


yeh i do :)

[Davis Bloome]

I begin to think it could be both. I'm not sure if you could call what Chloe will do in the later episodes betrayal, but she is part of bringing Clark to his destiny.

[Timester]

Especially since the writers had Davis ask Tess to clarify what she was talking about and according to her interpretation he is Judas.

Which is wrong, since Judas didn't killed Jesus. It's about the catalyst. Can't believe how many times I have to repeat this...

[Dustmite]

Especially since the writers had Davis ask Tess to clarify what she was talking about and according to her interpretation he is Judas.

Yup!

I want to add more but I'm talked out.

[Tess is Smokin]

Which is wrong, since Judas didn't killed Jesus. It's about the catalyst. Can't believe how many times I have to repeat this...


here here... i get it. it that's a comfort.

[Kalista]

Not Judas the Betrayer, but Judas the Catalyst. That's what Tess' speech meant. Nothing else.

Exactly! Tess clearly told Davis that he is the catalyst.

[ginevrakent]

Especially since the writers had Davis ask Tess to clarify what she was talking about and according to her interpretation he is Judas.

Tess interpreted it wrong just like Lionel initially misjudged the fact that two boys from the sky the day of the meteor shower. Judas did not kill Jesus. The Romans killed Jesus. Chloe will not kill Clark. Davis will kill Clark.

[Timester]

Tess may have meant that but the talk on this thread is of betrayal. Questioning Chloe's loyalty to Clark after this episode? :\

It's still a betrayal. Tess using the orb and Chloe not telling about Davis to Clark. A true betrayal and a betrayal of trust. But not a Judas-like betrayal.

[Kalista]

Yup!

I want to add more but I'm talked out.


Same here.

[Dustmite]

Exactly! Tess clearly told Davis that he is the catalyst.

Yes!

[Kalista]

Yes!

Yet Chloe is is characterized as the "catalyst" or "betrayer".:rolleyes:

Chloe knows that Davis was sent to kill Clark and that he is invulnerable. So to protect him, she sacrifices her freedom and somehow that's evil. Okay.

[Dustmite]

Yet Chloe is is characterized as the "catalyst" or "betrayer".:rolleyes:

Neither in my opinion as the original timeline in Infamous showed. No matter what she does, what's going to happen is going to happen.

[Timester]

Yet Chloe is is characterized as the "catalyst" or "betrayer".:rolleyes:

Is she not part of the catalyst?
Is she not betraying Clark's trust?

[mod edit] Why it has to be always about binary and extremes with Smallville debating?

[Tess is Smokin]

Neither in my opinion as the original timeline in Infamous showed. No matter what she does, what's going to happen is going to happen.


keeping clark in the dark aint helping.

[ginevrakent]

Neither in my opinion as the original timeline in Infamous showed. No matter what she does, what's going to happen is going to happen.

Then, according to this logic, Chloe will die.

[Tess is Smokin]

Is she not part of the catalyst?
Is she not betraying Clark's trust?
[mod edit] Why it has to be always about binary and extremes with Smallville debating?


:rotfl:

[Timester]

Chloe knows that Davis was sent to kill Clark and that he is invulnerable. So to protect him, she sacrifices her freedom and somehow that's evil. Okay.

WHO the HELL is calling Chloe EVIL? Tell me who.

If you can't, STOP with the accusations. :mad:

[Kalista]

Neither in my opinion as the original timeline in Infamous showed. No matter what she does, what's going to happen is going to happen.

Infamous you say? The episode where she told Davis to stay away from Clark and spent what may have been her last moments alive to try to warn him?

Yes, the showdown will happen no matter what because Davis has to be stopped and Clark's the only one capable of stopping him.

[One-Winged-Angel]

The real Judas to me is the person who okayed the Lana storyline this season

amen

[Tess is Smokin]

Yet Chloe is is characterized as the "catalyst" or "betrayer".:rolleyes:

Chloe knows that Davis was sent to kill Clark and that he is invulnerable. So to protect him, she sacrifices her freedom and somehow that's evil. Okay.



So it has nothing to do with her attraction to Davis? and Hows is she helping clark by keeping him in the dark? by not helping him prepare?

[Mickey_Bickey]

I just want to point out that it was Judas' betrayal that was the catalyst. It was the Romans/Pilate that carried out his fate. Therefore, on Smallville, Chloe is the catalyst (Judas) and Doomsday (Pilate) is the one that ultimately executes the fated death blows. Furthermore, Judas was a trusted friend of Jesus not an enemy like Tess or Davis.

The part I bolded is the part I especially agree with. You cannot betray someone unless you are close to them and have their trust. Otherwise, it's not betrayal.

I also agree with everything else you stated here.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


Which is why she tried to kill the dude :rolleyes:

Then agonized over it, placed her hand up to his, bowed her head in sadness and shed more tears over Davis than her broken marriage.:rolleyes:

Clark's face at that moment said it all. Chloe is seperating herself from Clark and moving closer to Davis. The end scene cemented that. She is in this scenario Judas.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


So it has nothing to do with her attraction to Davis? and Hows is she helping clark by keeping him in the dark? by not helping him prepare?

Well, in the upcoming spoilers Chloe has left the building, because Davis is calling her and telling her that people broke into her apartment and he's holding them there........hence she has an opportunity to tell Clark about Davis' immortal statice and that kryptonite will not hurt him. If she doesn't contact Clark we have our answer, and this will no longer be speculation. , so there will be an opportunity for Chloe to either choice to actually protect Clark or betray him.

[melissan02]

The part I bolded is the part I especially agree with. You cannot betray someone unless you are close to them and have their trust. Otherwise, it's not betrayal.

I also agree with everything else you stated here.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----



Then agonized over it, placed her hand up to his, bowed her head in sadness and shed more tears over Davis than her broken marriage.:rolleyes:

Clark's face at that moment said it all. Chloe is seperating herself from Clark and moving closer to Davis. The end scene cemented that. She is in this scenario Judas.Ah Michelle! Beautiful post!;)

I just went back and watched that very scene from Eternal when Davis was being slimed by kryptonite.:lol::p Chloe abruptly ran over to Davis, and as you pointed out, placed her hand up to his, and sobbed as she stared into his eyes.
A perfect example of her departing (betrayal) from Clark to Davis. There was betrayal from Chloe written all over this episode!

[Mickey_Bickey]

Especially since the writers had Davis ask Tess to clarify what she was talking about and according to her interpretation he is Judas.

Tess must be assuming that Davis is close to Clark. She doesn't realize when she's saying this to Davis that his relationship is non-existant with Clark or antagonistic at best.

Again, the Judas analogy can only suggest that someone close to Clark will betray him. It's black and white here. You can't betray someone you're not close to. You don't have their trust or confidence or relationship for that matter.

Judas was an Apostle, Jesus' inner circle.

Davis doesn't fit no matter what Tess said. If you interpret her words, which were stated more than once in this episode, then the only person who has that much power to betray Clark is Chloe. No one else is as close to him, therefore it cannot be anyone else.

[melissan02]

so there will be an opportunity for Chloe to either choice to actually protect Clark or betray him.It's the latter. She's already started down that twisted path of betrayal.

[Mickey_Bickey]

Ah Michelle! Beautiful post!;)

I just went back and watched that very scene from Eternal when Davis was being slimed by kryptonite.:lol::p Chloe abruptly ran over to Davis, and as you pointed out, placed her hand up to his, and sobbed as she stared into his eyes.
A perfect example of her departing (betrayal) from Clark to Davis. There was betrayal from Chloe written all over this episode!

Thanks, Melissa, but also on purpose the director zoomed in on Clark's face at that moment where he was realizing the bond between them. In no other episode have we ever seen Chloe turn to anyone like that. In other words, Chloe has never ended up sobbing and falling apart about any other villian, murderer or evil person on this show when something bad has happened to them. This, this was different, and Clark knows it too.

[melissan02]

Tess must be assuming that Davis is close to Clark. She doesn't realize when she's saying this to Davis that his relationship is non-existant with Clark or antagonistic at best.

Again, the Judas analogy can only suggest that someone close to Clark will betray him. It's black and white here. You can't betray someone you're not close to. You don't have their trust or confidence or relationship for that matter.

Judas was an Apostle, Jesus' inner circle.

Davis doesn't fit no matter what Tess said. If you interpret her words, which were stated more than once in this episode, then the only person who has that much power to betray Clark is Chloe. No one else is as close to him, therefore it cannot be anyone else.
Case closed!;) The prosecution rests!:p:rotfl:

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Thanks, Melissa, but also on purpose the director zoomed in on Clark's face at that moment where he was realizing the bond between them. In no other episode have we ever seen Chloe turn to anyone like that. In other words, Chloe has never ended up sobbing and falling apart about any other villian, murderer or evil person on this show when something bad has happened to them. This, this was different, and Clark knows it too.

Exactly! He'll definitely know it's different when/if he gets jacked by Doomsday!:rotfl:

[Mickey_Bickey]

It's the latter. She's already started down that twisted path of betrayal.

It's definitely looking that way right now. It's unfortunate, because we just came off of a great ending for her character in Hex. There wasn't a glimpse of this in that story, yet here we go.

[melissan02]

It's definitely looking that way right now. It's unfortunate, because we just came off of a great ending for her character in Hex. There wasn't a glimpse of this in that story, yet here we go.

But that's one of the great things about Chloe's character...being non-canon, they can do things like this to her, and I love it!

[Mickey_Bickey]

Case closed!;) The prosecution rests!:p:rotfl:

The Judge has spoken!:lol: [bangs the hammer down loudly]

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Exactly! He'll definitely know it's different when/if he gets jacked by Doomsday!:rotfl:

That statement he made "it wasn't much of a fight"......oh boy!! He has no idea!!

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


But that's one of the great things about Chloe's character...being non-canon, they can do things like this to her, and I love it!

That's what CF said in her interview actually. I just think that there has been a tremendous amount of buildup for something big to happen to her character this season, especially from Abyss on and even before that.

With Rokk coming back that has to tie into Chloe and Doomsday somehow, and the fact that they didn't even know her name in the future and made it a point to say it. It's all making sense now.

[Davis Bloome]

It's a pity actually to go off topic, they wanted to make Chloe a canon comic in the superman comic, sadly it got cancelled, does anyone know why?

[Herod]

Especially since the writers had Davis ask Tess to clarify what she was talking about and according to her interpretation he is Judas.
But by stating this you're actually making my argument. In order for dramatic irony to exist, the characters must believe and often state ONE thing while the audience knows ANOTHER, aka the greater truth. Tess believes Davis is Judas (yes, no one is arguing this at all) but the audience understands that the real Judas may be someone else (Chloe) which is why the situation is so ironic.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


But here's the thing. I don't think they were going for dramatic irony. I don't think they were trying to convince the audience that Chloe is Judas at all.
Yes, and I understand that. Trust me, you've made that very clear. But that has nothing to do with my own personal beliefs. And what I believe is that it's very possible for the writers to have been trying to play up the dramatic irony angle. My belief. You don't have to agree with it.

[Sports72Xtrm]

So if Chloe chooses Davis...will she become a villain?:confused:

[Herod]

Neither in my opinion as the original timeline in Infamous showed. No matter what she does, what's going to happen is going to happen.
That's not the point. The point in my argument is not that Chloe's betrayal will lead to x, y, or z points but simply that she will end up being Clark's Judas. If in that other time-line she did not betray Clark, then she was not Judas in that time-line. Here, however, she may very well end up being Judas and that was the only point that I was trying to make. That Chloe being Judas IS a possibility.

[Sports72Xtrm]

It's a pity actually to go off topic, they wanted to make Chloe a canon comic in the superman comic, sadly it got cancelled, does anyone know why?
I think they said they couldn't fit her in and maker relevant to the Superman storyline without taking someone else's spot like Jimmy or Lois. Like they wanted her to be in the DP but couldn't think of anything for her to do. She couldn't be the investigative reporter because that was Lois' role and they thought they could make her an intern (as Lana's bestfriend's little sister from high school) but didn't know why Clark would need to interact with her.

[Herod]

So if Chloe chooses Davis...will she become a villain?:confused:
Well this discussion isn't about Chloe becoming a villain but of the possibility of her becoming Clark's Judas through an act of betrayal, intentional or other. Villains on the other hand are intentionally malicious and I don't believe anyone is accusing Chloe of this.

----- Added 52 Seconds later -----


WHO the HELL is calling Chloe EVIL? Tell me who.

If you can't, STOP with the accusations. :mad:
Sigh. Exactly.

[Mickey_Bickey]

So if Chloe chooses Davis...will she become a villain?:confused:

She will seperate herself from Clark's inner circle, which obviously is not a good thing. I said this when the spoilers first came out for these events, and I'll say it again. By Chloe associating herself with Davis, Clark's ultimate destroyer, she is distancing herself from Clark. They are one in the same. Villian? Not necessarily. Betrayer? Yes if she doesn't warn Clark.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Well this discussion isn't about Chloe becoming a villain but of the possibility of her becoming Clark's Judas through an act of betrayal, intentional or other. Villains on the other hand are intentionally malicious and I don't believe anyone is accusing Chloe of this.


Yeah I guess your right. The story is pointing to Chloe biting more than she can chew so I guess you can't really classify her as such.


She will seperate herself from Clark's inner circle, which obviously is not a good thing. I said this when the spoilers first came out for these events, and I'll say it again. By Chloe associating herself with Davis, Clark's ultimate destroyer, she is distancing herself from Clark. They are one in the same. Villian? Not necessarily. Betrayer? Yes if she doesn't warn Clark.

But she's part of the justice League. If Clark doesn't trust her, then he should stop going to her for help. So what is her purpose?

[Mickey_Bickey]

But by stating this you're actually making my argument. In order for dramatic irony to exist, the characters must believe and often state ONE thing while the audience knows ANOTHER, aka the greater truth. Tess believes Davis is Judas (yes, no one is arguing this at all) but the audience understands that the real Judas may be someone else (Chloe) which is why the situation is so ironic.
.

Wow, what a great way to state this! I couldn't agree more, and I loved the way you phrased the part I bolded. I've been saying this all along that Tess doesn't know that Davis and Clark have no relationship, therefore he cannot be the Judas in this scenario. She got it wrong. We know better, because we know that this analogy implies that only someone extremely close to Clark who knows everything about him and Davis for that matter is the only one who can betray him. Chloe is the only one in this unique position to do so. She's already falling for Davis (regardless of the fact that her marriage only broke up 2 episodes ago), and she's the only one close enough to Clark that knows enough about him to betray him. Lois, Jimmy and Oliver are out of the equation for lack of knowledge or lack of association with Davis.

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----



But she's part of the justice League. If Clark doesn't trust her, then he should stop going to her for help. So what is her purpose?

She just was introduced into the Justic League, but that's not going to make a lick of difference if she doesn't warn Clark in the next episode. She will have an opportunity, because she's out with Lois, and her car is stolen . So, given that we'll see for sure in the next episode.

He still trusts her. To his knowledge, Davis is dead.

[topping82]

The Judas analogy was ABSURD, at least as Tess understood it. I'm sorry, but Judas has free will. Him and Jesus are close, like brothers. And he betrays Jesus for 30 pieces of silver because 1, he's greedy, and 2 he thinks Jesus will save himself.

Davis and Clark are not close, and it would not make sense for him to "betray" him. Davis when he turns into the beast might kill him, but that's not betrayal as he has NO FREE WILL. Betrayal constitutes a choice.

And Chloe? She'd never test the waters to see if Clark would save himself, nor is she greedy. She's proven her loyalty. Chloe is not a backstabber. Chloe is more like John the beloved or even Mary Magdeline. And that's only because Lois doesn't know his secret at this point. If he were to die and resurrect the first person he would go to is Chloe (or Martha). She'd be the one watching over his grave, not helping him into it.

To be honest, Tess, Lex and Lana fit the "Judas" bill the closest. But since Lex and Lana are gone, I'm thinking Tess.

She's a bit of a fanatic and her views of Clark are twisted. She practically thinks he should die to be able to become the hero.

I can see her, like Judas, turning Clark over to someone for money (some kind of business deal), thinking that "hey, it's not like he'll actually die." She thinks that it will force him into a confrontation with DD and then Clark will OVERCOME. He'll be safe.

Or heck, she could have changed her mind by the end and sees herself in the Judas role. Like she has to do it herself to get things done.

She said at the end, "Sooner than you think Kal-El." Could she have already been planning a betrayal? Something to do with controlling the traveler.

And what if Clark actually dies? Of course, like Jesus, he'll be resurrected but...Tess might think that he's actually dead. Like Judas, she would be filled with remorse, thinking, "I killed the savior." And then she'll leave or...die. Just speculating.

But again, Chloe and Davis are not Judas characters. But Tess might be. That comparison between Judas and Davis is beyond ridiculous. It makes NO logical sense. I'm hoping the writers knew this when they wrote out that scene because the rest of the episode was great!

[Jack-El49]

I think Timester stated it best. Tess said that Judas was the catalyst for Jesus becoming the saviour. It wasn't so much about HOW he was the catalyst but that he was the catalyst - he caused Jesus to be crucified, die and then resurrect. The fact that Judas betrayed Jesus is secondary to the fact that by Judas' actions, Jesus was killed by his enemies and he rose from the dead to save mankind.

Chloe is the catalyst, not Davis. Ergo, Chloe is cast into the role of Judas, not Davis.

[4Clana]

Am I the only one thinking Chloe is maybe doing this because she has feelings for Davis and not to protect Clark ?
IA, Chloe did basically whatever Davis asked of her in the episode.

[Mickey_Bickey]

The Judas analogy was ABSURD, at least as Tess understood it. I'm sorry, but Judas has free will. Him and Jesus are close, like brothers. And he betrays Jesus for 30 pieces of silver because 1, he's greedy, and 2 he thinks Jesus will save himself.

This analogy obviously isn't supposed to be taken literally.


Davis and Clark are not close, and it would not make sense for him to "betray" him. Davis when he turns into the beast might kill him, but that's not betrayal as he has NO FREE WILL. Betrayal constitutes a choice.

Exactly, they're not close enough for Davis to betray Clark. There is no relationship or trust there, so therefore there can be no betrayal. Tess had the wrong person.


And Chloe? She'd never test the waters to see if Clark would save himself, nor is she greedy. She's proven her loyalty. Chloe is not a backstabber.

She's associating herself with Davis, and distancing herself from Clark. Chloe is as close to Clark as Judas was to Jesus. It's the only relationship Clark has on this show right now that can fit this analogy.


To be honest, Tess, Lex and Lana fit the "Judas" bill the closest. But since Lex and Lana are gone, I'm thinking Tess.

It can't be Lex or Tess. Lex and Clark's relationship fell apart seasons ago, and Clark never trusted Lex with his secret. He wasn't part of Clark's inner circle, and Tess? He's not even friends with her. Those two don't make sense at all. Lana? She's close enough, but she's not on the show anymore, so it can't be her.


I can see her, like Judas, turning Clark over to someone for money (some kind of business deal), thinking that "hey, it's not like he'll actually die." She thinks that it will force him into a confrontation with DD and then Clark will OVERCOME. He'll be safe.

Again, it's not to be taken literally meaning money. It's about the relationship and how the action of betrayal relates to the characters in this series. No one but Chloe is close enough to Clark to betray him, no one. Lois doesn't know his secret, nor does Jimmy. Oliver doesn't have the connection to Davis. Chloe is the common demoninator.


She said at the end, "Sooner than you think Kal-El." Could she have already been planning a betrayal? Something to do with controlling the traveler.

You're grasping at straws. There's no buildup for any close relationship with Clark and Tess. She's not the one. He doesn't trust her enough for her to be able to betray him.


But again, Chloe and Davis are not Judas characters. But Tess might be. That comparison between Judas and Davis is beyond ridiculous. It makes NO logical sense. I'm hoping the writers knew this when they wrote out that scene because the rest of the episode was great!

Actually, I thought this analogy was very good if indeed Chloe doesn't warn Clark in the next episode. It will make perfect sense in that case.

The episode was okay. Not great, a lot of plotholes and a major lightswitch with Chloe giggling and flirting with Davis only 2 episodes after her marriage broke up, and of course admitting to Clark that she was indeed having feelings for him. Even Clark said he thought it was too soon. That's the ridiculous part actually.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


I think Timester stated it best. Tess said that Judas was the catalyst for Jesus becoming the saviour. It wasn't so much about HOW he was the catalyst but that he was the catalyst - he caused Jesus to be crucified, die and then resurrect. The fact that Judas betrayed Jesus is secondary to the fact that by Judas' actions, Jesus was killed by his enemies and he rose from the dead to save mankind.

Chloe is the catalyst, not Davis. Ergo, Chloe is cast into the role of Judas, not Davis.

Makes a lot of sense.

[Chlollie]

I don't know what to say, I don't know anything about Judas, but I think Chloe would die to protect Clark.

[Mickey_Bickey]

Am I the only one thinking Chloe is maybe doing this because she has feelings for Davis and not to protect Clark ?

No, I've stated that as well here, Karine and substantiated the argument with Chloe's actions in this episode, especially the scenes where she's giggling and flirting with Davis, putting her hand up to his in shear agony while he's dying and then choosing to stay with him by locking the door.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


I don't know what to say, I don't know anything about Judas, but I think Chloe would die to protect Clark.

I don't think that Chloe is intentionally going to hurt Clark, but by certain choices she's making her actions like Jack and Bruno said are going to be the catalyst to which inevitably brings Clark to his knees and possible death.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


Which is wrong, since Judas didn't killed Jesus. It's about the catalyst. Can't believe how many times I have to repeat this...

Great way to look and explain this, Bruno. That's exactly it!

[Jack-El49]

She's associating herself with Davis, and distancing herself from Clark. Chloe is as close to Clark as Judas was to Jesus. It's the only relationship Clark has on this show right now that can fit this analogy.

It can't be Lex or Tess. Lex and Clark's relationship fell apart seasons ago, and Clark never trusted Lex with his secret. He wasn't part of Clark's inner circle, and Tess? He's not even friends with her. Those two don't make sense at all. Lana? She's close enough, but she's not on the show anymore, so it can't be her.


I agree. Chloe is the only character who presently can be Judas in this interpretation. Lana? Lana who?;)

[ginevrakent]

I don't know what to say, I don't know anything about Judas, but I think Chloe would die to protect Clark.

In the end, after Judas had collected his silver in exchange for betraying Jesus, he started to think that perhaps he had made a poor decision. The guilt became so much for him that he tried to redeem himself by returning the money to the Jewish authorities. It was too late. Out of extreme guilt and remorse, Judas ultimately hangs himself.

I don't share this to say that Chloe will follow this blueprint. However, I do think Chloe will get to a point where she'll realize she got in over her head and will seek a way to make things right. I'm not sure what her future holds, though. I certainly don't see her as evil. I think she's in a tough situation that she may or may not come out of in a positive way.

[Jedimaster_TTBaby]

Chloe has to be Judas....honestly who else! Judas was Jesus' friend and disciple and he betrayed him. Now, she may not think she's betraying him, but, it may well happen :\.

[topping82]

This analogy obviously isn't supposed to be taken literally.

Who is? I'm hoping they're not being literal. I was saying "AS TESS UNDERSTOOD IT." Tess was taking it literally as a character.


Exactly, they're not close enough for Davis to betray Clark. There is no relationship or trust there, so therefore there can be no betrayal. Tess had the wrong person.

Which is my point. From what I'm getting, you're saying that it's not literal (which I agree as it would make no sense) because Davis is not Judas, but that it would be literal about Chloe. There I disagree. I don't think she's Judas. She chose Clark over Davis to help humanity. Gee. What a villain. In the end, she goes with Davis to help Clark and mankind. That's not a betrayal, that's loyalty. It's just like when Beauty goes to live in the castle with the Beast to protect the life of her father. Though of course, Chloe apparently has feelings for Davis as well, so I doubt she minds all that much. So nothing in her behavior suggests that in the future she will become Judas. In fact, Clark WANTED Chloe to find another way to stop DD. She found one.


She's associating herself with Davis, and distancing herself from Clark. Chloe is as close to Clark as Judas was to Jesus. It's the only relationship Clark has on this show right now that can fit this analogy.

So now you're saying there has to be a Judas character? I agree that there might be one. But Tess is the one who kept bringing up betrayal. She even alluded to the fact that Clark betrayed Lex because Clark never trusted him. She felt Clark was starting to do that to her. And since we're not necessarily taking this literally, Judas doesn't necessarily have to be someone extremely close to Clark. He has trusted her a little bit this season, and Chloe did warn him about her, just like he warned her about Davis. Also, this twisted analogy of Judas is ALL from Tess' perspective. The writers could just be introducing us into her frame of mind. She could be wrongly convinced about this whole Judas thing.

For all we know, it could also just simply be that Tess is overstating things and that in simple terms DD will be a catalyst to Clark becoming Superman. And that the scene was foreshadowing the episode Doomsday. The end.


It can't be Lex or Tess. Lex and Clark's relationship fell apart seasons ago, and Clark never trusted Lex with his secret. He wasn't part of Clark's inner circle, and Tess? He's not even friends with her. Those two don't make sense at all. Lana? She's close enough, but she's not on the show anymore, so it can't be her.


If there is a Judas character, which I'm not convinced of, I think it could be Lex or Tess. And I already that it wasn't Lex or Lana anyway because they're not around. Tess, in her mind, could be a Judas. Would she fit all of the requirements? Of course not. But again, maybe they weren't being literal.


Again, it's not to be taken literally meaning money. It's about the relationship and how the action of betrayal relates to the characters in this series. No one but Chloe is close enough to Clark to betray him, no one. Lois doesn't know his secret, nor does Jimmy. Oliver doesn't have the connection to Davis. Chloe is the common demoninator.

And that's just one theory. There are of course many ways to betray. And yes, it ultimately always comes down to relationships. The money is just a symbol. And I just don't see Chloe as Judas. That would be bad writing. But people are free to see her that way I suppose.



You're grasping at straws. There's no buildup for any close relationship with Clark and Tess. She's not the one. He doesn't trust her enough for her to be able to betray him.

HUH??? I think you're reading too much into my "spec." It's not even necessarily what I want. I was just going off for the heck of going off because Davis and Chloe don't make sense, and I was pointing out how Tess "COULD" make sense.

I don't necessarily believe that Clark and Tess will become close and then she'll betray him. They're doing their own version of things. And Tess could simply betray him thinking that she's pushing him toward his destiny, seeing herself as some kind of Judas. Not that she would EXACTLY fit the bill. But this is Smallville. It's not like Clark is exact to Jesus.



The episode was okay. Not great, a lot of plotholes and a major lightswitch with Chloe giggling and flirting with Davis only 2 episodes after her marriage broke up, and of course admitting to Clark that she was indeed having feelings for him. Even Clark said he thought it was too soon. That's the ridiculous part actually.


I thought it was brilliant. And definitely not a lightswitch for Chlavis as they've been building it up all season.

Well anyway, I understand your view points. I just see it differently. I don't think anyone will actually in the end turn out to be "Judas" in the literal sense.

[ginevrakent]

I don't think she's Judas. She chose Clark over Davis to help humanity. Gee. What a villain. In the end, she goes with Davis to help Clark and mankind. That's not a betrayal, that's loyalty.

Judas thought he was helping the Jewish people by betraying Jesus. Many Biblical scholars hypothesize that his betrayal was meant to spur Jesus to incite a violent rebellion against the Roman occupiers of Judea.

[Jack-El49]

I thought it was brilliant. And definitely not a lightswitch for Chlavis as they've been building it up all season.

Which begs the question, why then did Chloe marry Jimmy? :rolleyes:

Either way you look at it, Chloe looks bad in the Chlavis relationship. She's not looking very good in the relationship with Clark either at this point.

[Mickey_Bickey]

Who is? I'm hoping they're not being literal. I was saying "AS TESS UNDERSTOOD IT." Tess was taking it literally as a character. Which is my point. From what I'm getting, you're saying that it's not literal (which I agree as it would make no sense) because Davis is not Judas, but that it would be literal about Chloe. There I disagree. I don't think she's Judas. She chose Clark over Davis to help humanity. Gee. What a villain. In the end, she goes with Davis to help Clark and mankind. That's not a betrayal, that's loyalty. It's just like when Beauty goes to live in the castle with the Beast to protect the life of her father. Though of course, Chloe apparently has feelings for Davis as well, so I doubt she minds all that much. So nothing in her behavior suggests that in the future she will become Judas. In fact, Clark WANTED Chloe to find another way to stop DD. She found one.

It's not what Chloe did last night that proves she's Judas. It's what she does in the next episode. The buildup was done in this episode, but the actual betrayal itself will not be evident until Stiletto if there is one.


So now you're saying there has to be a Judas character? I agree that there might be one. But Tess is the one who kept bringing up betrayal. She even alluded to the fact that Clark betrayed Lex because Clark never trusted him. She felt Clark was starting to do that to her. And since we're not necessarily taking this literally, Judas doesn't necessarily have to be someone extremely close to Clark. He has trusted her a little bit this season, and Chloe did warn him about her, just like he warned her about Davis. Also, this twisted analogy of Judas is ALL from Tess' perspective. The writers could just be introducing us into her frame of mind. She could be wrongly convinced about this whole Judas thing.

I definitely think there's a "Judas character". They made too much emphasis on it for there not to be, and the only one close enough to Clark to betray him in such a way that Judas betrayed Jesus is Chloe. There is no other character on this show that fits that mold or close relationship.


For all we know, it could also just simply be that Tess is overstating things and that in simple terms DD will be a catalyst to Clark becoming Superman. And that the scene was foreshadowing the episode Doomsday. The end.

But we know that Clark didn't have to battle Doomsday to become Superman in the mythos. He's been embracing his destiny all season long and becoming Superman. Tess I definitely think had it wrong in her twisted mind about Davis and Lex, because neither had the strong relationship with him that he has with Chloe. She's the only one right now on this show that he trusts completely.


If there is a Judas character, which I'm not convinced of, I think it could be Lex or Tess. And I already that it wasn't Lex or Lana anyway because they're not around. Tess, in her mind, could be a Judas. Would she fit all of the requirements? Of course not. But again, maybe they weren't being literal.

It can't be either Lex or Tess, and it's because Clark never trusted Lex and doesn't trust Tess. Judas was one of the Apostles, the inner circle, one of Jesus' closest confidants. That relationship is what's important here. That's what matters. No other characters on this show can truly be compared to Judas and Jesus the way that Chloe and Clark can.


And that's just one theory. There are of course many ways to betray. And yes, it ultimately always comes down to relationships. The money is just a symbol. And I just don't see Chloe as Judas. That would be bad writing. But people are free to see her that way I suppose.

1: to lead astray ; especially :2: to deliver to an enemy by treachery3: to fail or desert especially in time of need <betrayed his family>4 a: to reveal unintentionally <betray one's true feelings> c: to disclose in violation of confidence <betray a secret>To aid

Above is the official definition of betrayal, and I would say that #4 definitely applies here, and perhaps others in the near future (Stiletto).


HUH??? I think you're reading too much into my "spec." It's not even necessarily what I want. I was just going off for the heck of going off because Davis and Chloe don't make sense, and I was pointing out how Tess "COULD" make sense.

I don't necessarily believe that Clark and Tess will become close and then she'll betray him. They're doing their own version of things. And Tess could simply betray him thinking that she's pushing him toward his destiny, seeing herself as some kind of Judas. Not that she would EXACTLY fit the bill. But this is Smallville. It's not like Clark is exact to Jesus.

Nothing's exact, but the writers purposely and repeatedly put this analogy out there. I don't want this either just for the record!!!!


And definitely not a lightswitch for Chlavis as they've been building it up all season.

No lightswitch? Her marriage ended 2 episodes ago, and they did quite a bit of building up for Chloe and Jimmy's wedding as well, not to mention how they're meant to be! (Committed and Bride...heavy Chimmy).


Well anyway, I understand your view points. I just see it differently. I don't think anyone will actually in the end turn out to be "Judas" in the literal sense.

Honestly, I hope she doesn't either. I much prefer the Watchtower over Judas!!!;) I understand what you're saying as well, and I hope that we're talking in the Stiletto thread about how Chloe warned Clark or at least tried to before Chloe leaves with him .

[Davis Bloome]

I wouldn't say they started off as in love in the beginning of the season, but something was developping. It just got in the way of Chloe's relationship with Jimmy. And she still loved Jimmy even when she had feelings for Davis. She just was a bit stuck in the middle. While her feelings were getting stronger for Davis, she felt guilty because of Jimmy's coma after the incident at the wedding. So the love development with Davis happened by accident and I bet she wasn't feeling comfortable with it being married with Jimmy and all. And indeed the relationship with Davis will even be more uncomfortable if they do get into that stage and it will certainly look bad on the relationship between Chloe and Clark.

[Mickey_Bickey]

I wouldn't say they started off as in love in the beginning of the season, but something was developping. It just got in the way of Chloe's relationship with Jimmy. And she still loved Jimmy even when she had feelings for Davis. She just was a bit stuck in the middle. While her feelings were getting stronger for Davis, she felt guilty because of Jimmy's coma after the incident at the wedding. So the love development with Davis happened by accident and I bet she wasn't feeling comfortable with it being married with Jimmy and all. And indeed the relationship with Davis will even be more uncomfortable if they do get into that stage and it will certainly look bad on the relationship between Chloe and Clark.

Off topic, but I absolutely love your avatar and name!!!

[Jack-El49]

Off topic, but I absolutely love your avatar and name!!!

And Judge Judy ROCKS!!!

[Davis Bloome]

Off topic, but I absolutely love your avatar and name!!! Thanks got the idea a bit of another avatar my wife made me. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/Anakin_501/SW%20banners%20and%20avatars/StarkillerAvatarsecond.png
It's Sam as starkiller from The Force Unleashed.

[Mickey_Bickey]

Thanks got the idea a bit of another avatar my wife made me. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/Anakin_501/SW%20banners%20and%20avatars/StarkillerAvatarsecond.png
It's Sam as starkiller from The Force Unleashed.

Oh, I love it!!! SW is such a tremendous actor!! He actually steals the scenes IMO!! Tell your wife she's very talented!!!:D

----- Added 31 Seconds later -----


And Judge Judy ROCKS!!!

Look out! She'll throw rocks!:lol: "Stone Them"!!;)

[Jack-El49]

Look out! She'll throw rocks!:lol: "Stone Them"!!;)

I could hear her judging Chloe: "And you are going out with him? *Looks at Davis* You're an idiot!"

[Mickey_Bickey]

I could hear her judging Chloe: "And you are going out with him? *Looks at Davis* You're an idiot!"

:rotfl:

[Dustmite]

So I've slept on in. Yeah, still not Judas especially by some the definitions I've read. You analyze it enough you can shove anyone into any box you want and satate x, y, z reasons for this that and the other. In the end, Chloe is NOT Judas. It's never what the show meant to portray or show no matter how it is defined or what it is compared to.

She's not so she's not.

[amalie]

So I've slept on in. Yeah, still not Judas especially by some the definitions I've read. You analyze it enough you can shove anyone into any box you want and satate x, y, z reasons for this that and the other. In the end, Chloe is NOT Judas. It's never what the show meant to portray or show no matter how it is defined or what it is compared to.

She's not so she's not.

We can't possibly know what the show meant to portray as evidenced by the differing opinions in this thread. Some of us believe that Chloe was being set up as the Judas figure, you (and some others), believe otherwise. It's an opinion, not a fact.

[Dustmite]

We can't possibly know what the show meant to portray as evidenced by the differing opinions in this thread. Some of us believe that Chloe was being set up as the Judas figure, you (and some others), believe otherwise. It's an opinion, not a fact.

Of course it's my opinion just as everyone explicitly stating that Chloe is Judas and that she is going to betray him is opnion.

[amalie]

Of course it's my opinion just as everyone explicitly stating that Chloe is Judas and that she is going to betray him is opnion.

The only reason I point it out is because your previous post reads more like you're stating a fact, particularly when you say


It's never what the show meant to portray or show no matter how it is defined or what it is compared to.

You can't possibly know that, unless tptb have told you something they haven't told me.

[Mickey_Bickey]

So I've slept on in. Yeah, still not Judas especially by some the definitions I've read. You analyze it enough you can shove anyone into any box you want and satate x, y, z reasons for this that and the other. In the end, Chloe is NOT Judas. It's never what the show meant to portray or show no matter how it is defined or what it is compared to.

She's not so she's not.

What definitions are you reading, because there are two facts that cannot be disputed, and those are that Judas was one of Jesus' Apostles, and he betrayed him. You might need a Bible. See, I didn't need anything to reference to know that Tess couldn't possibly be talking about Davis being Judas. The motives and intentions do not matter and are irrelevent. It's the relationship, and the betrayal that's pertinent, and no one else on this show is close enough to Clark to be a "Judas" to him except Chloe.

You can read all the definitions you want about why, but the why doesn't matter and doesn't count. It's the action and the bond between the two people.

In fact even without the Judas reference, you can't betray a person unless you're close to them and have their trust! Do you agree with that part? How can you betray your enemy? You can't, because the trust, bond, and friendship is not there. It's impossible. You have to have someone's trust and confidence in order to do such a deed.

We saw Chloe giggling, flirting and hanging out with Davis like they were a couple (something that even shocked Clark as well as the audience) so soon after her marriage ended, then we saw her agonizing over his death (again we see shock on Clark's face), then in the end she chooses to stay with him instead of making up an excuse to get away and contact and warn Clark.

If she doesn't warn him in Stiletto, what will you be saying then? That's the moment that's either going to tell us definitively whether or not Chloe is the Judas. I listed the official description of betrayal on the page before this, and I bolded the "to give aid" part.

Logically, she's the only one that makes sense. Could the writers turn around and just disregard all the references in this episode to Jesus and Judas? Yes. Will they? That's yet to be seen.

Who else in your opinion has the type of relationship currently on this show to fit the mold to be Judas? Who????

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


The only reason I point it out is because your previous post reads more like you're stating a fact, particularly when you say



You can't possibly know that, unless tptb have told you something they haven't told me.

Exactly, I agree on both accounts. We're speculating based on the facts and history of the relationship and action between Jesus and Judas and how it applies to the characters in this show.

In Smallville they're comparing Clark to Jesus (not that he's God, but that he's the one betrayed), and I believe Chloe to Judas (the one that betrays him as she is the only one who is close enough and part of his inner most circle).

It remains to be seen whether or not we'll actually see her betray him. If she warns him in Stiletto, then we'll be in this forum saying, "good, she stuck by him afterall"!! If not, then this will support this theory as by taking no action to warn him, she's betraying her friend thus becoming the catylyst for Clark's ultimate destruction.

[Dustmite]

What definitions are you reading, because there are two facts that cannot be disputed, and those are that Judas was one of Jesus' Apostles, and he betrayed him. Have you read that? You might need a Bible. See, I didn't need anything to reference anything to know that Tess couldn't possibly be talking about Davis being Judas. The motives and intentions do not matter and are irrelevent. It's the relationship, and the betrayal that's pertinent, and no one else on this show is close enough to Clark to be a "Judas" to him except Chloe.

You can read all the definitions you want about why, but the why doesn't matter and doesn't count. It's the action and the bond between the two people.

In fact even without the Judas reference, you can't betray a person unless you're close to them and have their trust! Do you agree with that part? How can you betray your enemy? You can't, because the trust, bond, and friendship is not there. It's impossible. You have to have someone's trust and confidence in order to do such a deed.

We saw Chloe giggling, flirting and hanging out with Davis like they were a couple (something that even shocked Clark as well as the audience) so soon after her marriage ended, then we saw her agonizing over his death (again we see shock on Clark's face), then in the end she chooses to stay with him instead of making up an excuse to get away and contact and warn Clark.

If she doesn't warn him in Stiletto, what will you be saying then? That's the moment that's either going to tell us definitively whether or not Chloe is the Judas. I listed the official description of betrayal on the page before this, and I bolded the "to give aid" part.

Logically, she's the only one that makes sense. Could the writers turn around and just disregard all the references in this episode to Jesus and Judas? Yes. Will they? That's yet to be seen.

Who else in your opinion has the type of relationship currently on this show to fit the mold to be Judas? Who????

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----



Exactly, I agree on both accounts. We're speculating based on the facts and history of the relationship and action between Jesus and Judas and how it applies to the characters in this show.

In Smallville they're comparing Clark to Jesus (not that he's God, but that he's the one betrayed), and I believe Chloe to Judas (the one that betrays him as she is the only one who is close enough and part of his inner most circle).

It remains to be seen whether or not we'll actually see her betray him. If she warns him in Stiletto, then we'll be in this forum saying, "good, she stuck by him afterall"!! If not, then this will support this theory as by taking no action to warn him, she's betraying her friend thus becoming the catylyst for Clark's ultimate destruction.

Please don't talk to be as if I'm an imbicile because I don't agree with what you are saying. It won't make your point any clearer or me more likey to see it. Tess wasn't talking about Chloe and it's not Chloe as far I'm concerned.


The only reason I point it out is because your previous post reads more like you're stating a fact, particularly when you say

Just how others hav estated that the show clearly meant to show Chloe as Judas.


The motives and intentions do not matter and are irrelevent. It's the relationship, and the betrayal that's pertinent, and no one else on this show is close enough to Clark to be a "Judas" to him except Chloe.

And I disagree. I think I've made that point pretty clear.

[Davis Bloome]

Dustmite, just a question. What in the later episodes it becomes clear that she is the Judas. I mean how would that effect you, cause you seem like a die hard Chloe fan. I'm just curious.

[Jaderoyale]

I personally don't see Chloe as Judas. Shes not the only person Clark trusts. He trusts Lois and much as i hate to say it, he trusts Lana.
I highly doubt that Chloe is going to betray him. The whole reason she is now harbouring Davis is to protect Clark. Fair enough hes a murderer, but she thinks keeping him will stop Doomsday coming out.

We know Doomsday is going to come out eventually, but that won't have anything to do with Chloe.

[Dustmite]

Dustmite, just a question. What in the later episodes it becomes clear that she is the Judas. I mean how would that effect you, cause you seem like a die hard Chloe fan. I'm just curious.

I don't believe I'll have to worry about that but if it happens, it means Chloe cannot continue on Smallville and in that case, I stop watching.

[Mickey_Bickey]

Please don't talk to be as if I'm an imbicile because I don't agree with what you are saying. It won't make your point any clearer or me more likey to see it. Tess wasn't talking about Chloe and it's not Chloe as far I'm concerned.

I'm not talking to you in any such manner, and please don't try to make the discussion personal.

Back on topic, my argument is substantiated by facts and logic, not by how I feel about a particular character. My argument is strong, because it's based on who Judas was to Jesus and how it logically applies to this show's characters by easily detecting who fits the mold. It's not based on my feelings about a particular character.


Just how others hav estated that the show clearly meant to show Chloe as Judas.

But those people are backing their arguments with facts, history and how Judas relates to Jesus, and not just saying "Chloe's Judas" with no explanation as to why.


And I disagree. I think I've made that point pretty clear.

Yes, and I disagree with your conviction that Chloe can't possibly be Judas just because she's a beloved character. It's not like Chloe isn't capable of any wrong doing. Any of these characters are except Clark.

We'll see come Stiletto. If Chloe does not warn Clark in that episode, what will you say then??? I would really like your answer on that, because we know that in Stiletto Chloe is out with Lois and is away from Davis. She will have an opportunity to contact him somehow.

[RedKRules]

We know Doomsday is going to come out eventually, but that won't have anything to do with Chloe.

I totally agree with you Jade..... I mean when DD killed Supeman in the comics ...... Chloe was not even there .... she wasn´t the one that setted Super up .... I mean this whole thing that is Chloe is a Judas is just another excuse to bash the character, first she was killer, now she is a traitor, I am wondering what it is going to be her next nick name or evolness :rolleyes:

[Mickey_Bickey]

I personally don't see Chloe as Judas. Shes not the only person Clark trusts. He trusts Lois and much as i hate to say it, he trusts Lana.
I highly doubt that Chloe is going to betray him. The whole reason she is now harbouring Davis is to protect Clark. Fair enough hes a murderer, but she thinks keeping him will stop Doomsday coming out.

We know Doomsday is going to come out eventually, but that won't have anything to do with Chloe.

Jade, Lois doesn't even know his secret. She's not as close to Clark as Chloe is. The rest are off the show or don't have the close, trusting relationship that Chloe has with him.

Sorry, but it can only be one person, and that's Chloe. I'm not saying she does it intentionally, but if she doesn't take any action to warn him and aids Davis, then she is betraying Clark, pure and simple.

Perhaps in Stiletto she will warn him, then we'll all be saying, "Oh good, that was close", but if she doesn't, then sorry but that will confirm this theory.

[Dustmite]

I'm not talking to you in any such manner, and please don't try to make the discussion personal.

Back on topic, my argument is substantiated by facts and logic, not by how I feel about a particular character. My argument is strong, because it's based on who Judas was to Jesus and how it logically applies to this show's characters by easily detecting who fits the mold. It's not based on my feelings about a particular character.



But those people are backing their arguments with facts, history and how Judas relates to Jesus, and not just saying "Chloe's Judas" with no explanation as to why.



Yes, and I disagree with your conviction that Chloe can't possibly be Judas just because she's a beloved character. It's not like Chloe isn't capable of any wrong doing. Any of these characters are except Clark.

We'll see come Stiletto. If Chloe does not warn Clark in that episode, what will you say then??? I would really like your answer on that, because we know that in Stiletto Chloe is out with Lois and is away from Davis. She will have an opportunity to contact him somehow.

I still won't think she's Judas.

And what's the point of carrying on with this if you're just going to de-bunk my case by saying that I'm blinded by my personal feelings for a character. There is no point, is there? Not if in your opinion my arguement is worthless and yours is iron-clad, which is what you're saying.

It was a throw-away line by Tess who was behaving like a maniac and that is all IMO. Chloe is not Judas, they never meant her to be and they never meant to show that as far I'm concerned. People have been blaming Chloe long before this episode and this line was shown.

----- Added 51 Seconds later -----


I personally don't see Chloe as Judas. Shes not the only person Clark trusts. He trusts Lois and much as i hate to say it, he trusts Lana.
I highly doubt that Chloe is going to betray him. The whole reason she is now harbouring Davis is to protect Clark. Fair enough hes a murderer, but she thinks keeping him will stop Doomsday coming out.

We know Doomsday is going to come out eventually, but that won't have anything to do with Chloe.

Exactly. Judas is just a nice label to stick on her :rolleyes:

[Mickey_Bickey]

I totally agree with you Jade..... I mean when DD killed Supeman in the comics ...... Chloe was not even there .... she wasn´t the one that setted Super up .... I mean this whole thing that is Chloe is a Judas is just another excuse to bash the character, first she was killer, now she is a traitor, I am wondering what it is going to be her next nick name or evolness :rolleyes:

That's not bashing her character. This came right from the episode, and it was repeated more than once.

This isn't the comics obviously, and Superman didn't even battle Doomsday until he was Superman for years on end and could fly. It's based on the comics, but it does not follow them to a "T".

I like Chloe's character and always have, but I'm not blinded by what the story is suggesting because of that. It's what was suggested in this episode as well as the buildup this season that brings me to this conclusion.

[Timester]

I totally agree with you Jade..... I mean when DD killed Supeman in the comics ...... Chloe was not even there .... she wasn´t the one that setted Super up .... I mean this whole thing that is Chloe is a Judas is just another way to bash the character, first she was killer, now she is a traitor, I am wondering what it is going to be her next nick name :rolleyes:

Can we all simply stop with the accusations? As Chloe's character became a sacred entity that NO ONE can talk about her?

Rao, this thread is making me believe that there is a Holy Church of Saint Chloe somewhere that forbiddens people of debating about a TV CHARACTER...

[RedKRules]

So I've slept on in. Yeah, still not Judas especially by some the definitions I've read. You analyze it enough you can shove anyone into any box you want and satate x, y, z reasons for this that and the other. In the end, Chloe is NOT Judas. It's never what the show meant to portray or show no matter how it is defined or what it is compared to.

She's not so she's not.

ITA:cool:

After YEARS of showing her lealty to Clark, almost dying for him several times, people still think Chloe is a traitor??? ahh please this so laughable

----- Added 45 Seconds later -----


Can we all simply stop with the accusations? As Chloe's character became a sacred entity that NO ONE can talk about her?

Rao, this thread is making me believe that there is a Holy Church of Saint Chloe somewhere that forbiddens people of debating about a TV CHARACTER...

Don´t care if you don´t like my POV.;)

[Dustmite]

Can we all simply stop with the accusations? As Chloe's character became a sacred entity that NO ONE can talk about her?

Rao, this thread is making me believe that there is a Holy Church of Saint Chloe somewhere that forbiddens people of debating about a TV CHARACTER...

That's false Bruno and you know it. There's more threads made to criticize her character and that's fact. People are going to defend her if they see fit.

[Timester]

Exactly. Judas is just a nice label to stick on her :rolleyes:

And this is the problem. NO ONE is calling her Judas. YOU are the one calling her Judas, everyone else is saying that she is on the same situation as Judas. It has NOTHING to do with the actions, but with the scenario presented.

Honestly, we need the brick wall smilie here...

[Mickey_Bickey]

I still won't think she's Judas.

And what's the point of carrying on with this if you're just going to de-bunk my case by saying that I'm blinded by my personal feelings for a character. There is no point, is there? Not if in your opinion my arguement is worthless and yours is iron-clad, which is what you're saying.

It was a throw-away line by Tess who was behaving like a maniac and that is all IMO. Chloe is not Judas, they never meant her to be and they never meant to show that as far I'm concerned. People have been blaming Chloe long before this episode and this line was shown.

You're probably right that it's not worth debating at this point. For the record, I don't want Chloe to be Judas, and I'm hoping in Stiletto that she warns Clark. Then I'll be the first person to say "I'm glad the Judas analogy didn't come to fruition"!

[Dustmite]

That's not bashing her character. This came right from the episode, and it was repeated more than once.

This isn't the comics obviously, and Superman didn't even battle Doomsday until he was Superman for years on end and could fly. It's based on the comics, but it does not follow them to a "T".

Why not look at this logically, instead of having all the emotion involved? I like Chloe's character and always have, but I'm not blinded by what the story is suggesting because of that.

Please stop saying that we only hold the opinions that we do because we're blinded. It's insulting.

[Timester]

That's false Bruno and you know it. There's more threads made to criticize her character and that's fact. People are going to defend her if they see fit.

But that the hell has the other threads to do with this??? :confused:

[Mickey_Bickey]

And this is the problem. NO ONE is calling her Judas. YOU are the one calling her Judas, everyone else is saying that she is on the same situation as Judas. It has NOTHING to do with the actions, but with the scenario presented.

Honestly, we need the brick wall smilie here...


http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/662/frustration5av.gif

[Jaderoyale]

Jade, Lois doesn't even know his secret. She's not as close to Clark as Chloe is. The rest are off the show or don't have the close, trusting relationship that Chloe has with him.

Sorry, but it can only be one person, and that's Chloe. I'm not saying she does it intentionally, but if she doesn't take any action to warn him and aids Davis, then she is betraying Clark, pure and simple.

Perhaps in Stiletto she will warn him, then we'll all be saying, "Oh good, that was close", but if she doesn't, then sorry but that will confirm this theory.

Yes Lois doesn't know his secret, but Clark does trust her. We know why he won't tell her his secret. The danger behind knowing his secret etc etc. Which Chloe is technically in and has been for 4 seasons.

It can't be one person. It can be either Chloe or Davis. I'm trying to think of an instance where Chloe has betrayed Clark. Name me one and i'll meet you half way.
Chloe won't warn Clark in Stiletto, because lets face it; she tells him shes harbouring Davis, Clark will realise Davis is still and alive and pretty much now invunerable. He will try and get Chloe to release Davis, to release herself in technicality, but she won't do that because she feels like she is protecting Clark.
Though i must be honest, there could be an instance where Chloe's effect stops working on Davis. But we don't know when or IF that will happen.

Yes, i can see the referencing and links between her and Judas, i can, i won't lie. But i dunno... its not the easiest thing for me to believe, if you know what i mean.

You know me Michele, i try and see both sides to every story, i'm fair like that :)
And after 8 years of this show, i can't see them having Chloe betray Clark. If they do, i will personally be very P'oD.

[Timester]

Don´t care if you don´t like my POV.;)

So accusations are based on point of views now? OK...

[Dustmite]

And this is the problem. NO ONE is calling her Judas. YOU are the one calling her Judas, everyone else is saying that she is on the same situation as Judas. It has NOTHING to do with the actions, but with the scenario presented.

Honestly, we need the brick wall smilie here...

There's plenty of people calling her Judas. Plenty. There's plenty saying that she's going to betray him.


But that the hell has the other threads to do with this???

You're saying that Chloe is a scared character that no one is allowed to talk about. It's not true. That's my point.

[amalie]

I personally don't see Chloe as Judas. Shes not the only person Clark trusts. He trusts Lois and much as i hate to say it, he trusts Lana.
I highly doubt that Chloe is going to betray him. The whole reason she is now harbouring Davis is to protect Clark. Fair enough hes a murderer, but she thinks keeping him will stop Doomsday coming out.

We know Doomsday is going to come out eventually, but that won't have anything to do with Chloe.

He trusts Lois but she isn't in his 'inner circle', to quote others and therefore, in my opinion, doesn't fit the role of Judas. Lana could be a possibility except, as far as we know, she's gone for good.

At the moment there seems to be only one person who has Clark's trust and importantly the setup for betrayal. They were fairly heavy handed with making this religous analogy in Eternal so I can't see them dropping the plot, I think there will be a betrayal and for the present I see noone in a position to deliver it other than Chloe.

[Dustmite]

That's my opinion, and it's not meant to be insulting. It's how I see it. The arguments presented to say Chloe isn't Judas are based on emotion, not logic.

I think it's against the rules for a reason.

[Jaderoyale]

He trusts Lois but she isn't in his 'inner circle', to quote others and therefore, in my opinion, doesn't fit the role of Judas. Lana could be a possibility except, as far as we know, she's gone for good.

At the moment there seems to be only one person who has Clark's trust and importantly the setup for betrayal. They were fairly heavy handed with making this religous analogy in Eternal so I can't see them dropping the plot, I think there will be a betrayal and for the present I see noone in a position to deliver it other than Chloe.

I wasn't saying Lois's was Judas :)
I was simply saying he trusts her. But yes, maybe not as much as Chloe considering shes his BFF.

[Timester]

There's plenty of people calling her Judas. Plenty. There's plenty saying that she's going to betray him.

"Judas" as in catalyst... Not Judas, as Chloe is going to sell Clark for 30 silver pieces to the Romans. Not as Chloe being the supreme bastard. We all know she is doing it for the good of Clark.

Apples and oranges.


You're saying that Chloe is a scared character that no one is allowed to talk about. It's not true. That's my point.

What? We were accused of bashing Chloe. :confused:

[Mickey_Bickey]

Yes Lois doesn't know his secret, but Clark does trust her. We know why he won't tell her his secret. The danger etc etc:rolleyes:

But she doesn't know enough about him or have the association with Davis to betray him on this matter.


It can't be one person. It can be either Chloe or Davis. I'm trying to think of an instance where Chloe has betrayed Clark. Name me one and i'll meet you half way.
Chloe won't warn Clark in Stiletto, because lets face it; she tells him shes harbouring Davis, Clark will realise Davis is still and alive and pretty much now invunerable. He will try and get Chloe to release Davis, to release herself in technicality, but she won't do that because she feels like she is protecting Clark.
Though i must be honest, there could be an instance where Chloe's effect stops working on Davis. But we don't know when or IF that will happen.

It can't be Davis. He doesn't have the relationship to Clark or his trust to betray him. It makes no sense for it to be him. I'm not saying anything about Chloe betraying Clark in the past. It's the buildup of the storyline now with all the references to Jesus and Judas. Well in Beast this pairing turns into a nightmare , we know it comes to an abrupt end.


Yes, i can see the referencing and links between her and Judas, i can, i won't lie. But i dunno... its not the easiest thing for me to believe, if you know what i mean.

Again, the emotionally part of any of us doesn't want Chloe to betray Clark intentionally or unintentionally, but she's the only one with the relationship, trust and confidence who also is associating (and more than that now) with Davis. There is no other person who fits the Judas description.


You know me Michele, i try and see both sides to every story, i'm fair like that :)
And after 8 years of this show, i can't see them having Chloe betray Davis. If they do, i will personally be very P'oD.


Exactly, and I'm not attacking Chloe. I'm discussing what happened in this episode, but I can't see it differently at this point. I'll wait until Stiletto to make my final judgement.

Bruno said it best, Judas was the catalyst not the perpetrator.:)

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


I think it's against the rules for a reason.

Just because you do not agree with what I am saying, please don't say that stating my opinion about a particular argument is against the rules. Let's just leave this at that for now. Obviously, this is going nowhere. I simply stated that you have to take a step back and look at this from a factual standpoint.

[Jaderoyale]

But she doesn't know enough about him or have the association with Davis to betray him on this matter.

Not saying Lois is Judas, just so you know.


It can't be Davis. He doesn't have the relationship to Clark or his trust to betray him. It makes no sense for it to be him. I'm not saying anything about Chloe betraying Clark in the past. It's the buildup of the storyline now with all the references to Jesus and Judas. Well in Beast this pairing turns into a nightmare , we know it comes to an abrupt end.

Fair enough Davis doesn't have Clarks trust. Well i haven't read any of the spoilers for Beast, so i didn't know that.


Again, the emotionally part of any of us doesn't want Chloe to betray Clark intentionally or unintentionally, but she's the only one with the relationship, trust and confidence who also is associating (and more than that now) with Davis. There is no other person who fits the Judas description.

Its not the emotional part of me. Its my head. Lol. I try not to get emotionally involved with this show at times because it makes me angsty.

[Mickey_Bickey]

Not saying Lois is Judas, just so you know.

Oh, I know, but if Lois was doing what Chloe is doing, and knew Clark's secret, etc. then I'd be saying the same thing about her.


Fair enough Davis doesn't have Clarks trust. Well i haven't read any of the spoilers for Beast, so i didn't know that.

There's a lot in the next few episodes that will be very telling.


Its not the emotional part of me. Its my head. Lol. I try not to get emotionally involved with this show at times because it makes me angsty.

I know you usually don't get too emotional about things. I do actually, and that's why I try not to argue when I'm in that state of mind, because it's better to back it with facts than the passion.;)

[RedKRules]

Please stop saying that we only hold the opinions that we do because we're blinded. It's insulting.

That is the problem, I mean I´ve seen people calling Chloe a lot of things, and if you are her fan and stand up for what you believe ..... your opinion doesn´t matter, you´re dellusional, you are blinded and stupid because you know If I am her fan I can´t set the difference between her being a good friend from a traitor .....

I don´t consider Chloe a saint, I never said she was .... maybe I should start SHELBY SACRED TEMPLE ... then maybe my opinion won´t be considered so ridiculous....

[Mickey_Bickey]

"Judas" as in catalyst... Not Judas, as Chloe is going to sell Clark for 30 silver pieces to the Romans. Not as Chloe being the supreme bastard. We all know she is doing it for the good of Clark.

Apples and oranges.

That was my point too. It's going to be unintentional IMO just like when she pulled the lever, and by doing so made him immortal.

[amalie]

Yes Lois doesn't know his secret, but Clark does trust her. We know why he won't tell her his secret. The danger behind knowing his secret etc etc. Which Chloe is technically in and has been for 4 seasons.

It can't be one person. It can be either Chloe or Davis. I'm trying to think of an instance where Chloe has betrayed Clark. Name me one and i'll meet you half way.
Chloe won't warn Clark in Stiletto, because lets face it; she tells him shes harbouring Davis, Clark will realise Davis is still and alive and pretty much now invunerable. He will try and get Chloe to release Davis, to release herself in technicality, but she won't do that because she feels like she is protecting Clark.
Though i must be honest, there could be an instance where Chloe's effect stops working on Davis. But we don't know when or IF that will happen.

Yes, i can see the referencing and links between her and Judas, i can, i won't lie. But i dunno... its not the easiest thing for me to believe, if you know what i mean.

You know me Michele, i try and see both sides to every story, i'm fair like that :)
And after 8 years of this show, i can't see them having Chloe betray Clark. If they do, i will personally be very P'oD.

If this does come true, do you think Clark will consider it a betrayal? I personally do especially when you consider the consequences it can have. By blinding Clark to Davis' existence she's affectively handing him a weapon, the element of surprise and the time to grow stronger.

[Timester]

That is the problem, I mean I´ve seen people calling Chloe a lot of things, and if you are her fan and stand up for what you believe ..... your opinion doesn´t matter, you´re dellusional, you are blinded and stupid because you know If I am her fan I can´t set the difference between her being a good friend from a traitor .....

I don´t consider Chloe a saint, I never said she was .... maybe I should start SHELBY SACRED TEMPLE ... then maybe my opinion won´t be considered so ridiculous....

Reported for baiting.

[RedKRules]

Reported for baiting.

Please carry on .... ;)

[Jaderoyale]

Oh, I know, but if Lois was doing what Chloe is doing, and knew Clark's secret, etc. then I'd be saying the same thing about her.

Ah, fair enough lol.


There's a lot in the next few episodes that will be very telling.

Well im trying not to overspoil myself with the remaining episodes so i'm pretty much at a loss for the next few episodes. Except for Stiletto. I can't help myself with that one.


I know you usually don't get too emotional about things. I do actually, and that's why I try not to argue when I'm in that state of mind, because it's better to back it with facts than the passion.;)

Exactly lol.


If this does come true, do you think Clark will consider it a betrayal? I personally do especially when you consider the consequences it can have. By blinding Clark to Davis' existence she's affectively handing him a weapon, the element of surprise and the time to grow stronger.

I don't know. I guess it could be seen that way. Keeping Davis and keeping Doomsday at bay is technically making Doomsday stronger. Because the longer he stays inside, the more power and strength hes going to have when he finally comes out.

[Dustmite]

That is the problem, I mean I´ve seen people calling Chloe a lot of things, and if you are her fan and stand up for what you believe ..... your opinion doesn´t matter, you´re dellusional, you are blinded and stupid because you know If I am her fan I can´t set the difference between her being a good friend from a traitor .....

I don´t consider Chloe a saint, I never said she was .... maybe I should start SHELBY SACRED TEMPLE ... then maybe my opinion won´t be considered so ridiculous....

That's what I have a problem with too. My opinion being considered worthless because I'm a Chloe fan. It's quite obvious that nothing I say will matter because I'm blinded so there is no point in carrying on.

[Mickey_Bickey]

If this does come true, do you think Clark will consider it a betrayal? I personally do especially when you consider the consequences it can have. By blinding Clark to Davis' existence she's affectively handing him a weapon, the element of surprise and the time to grow stronger.


It's the aid, and taking no action that will be the betrayal, and yes I agree that Clark will see this as somewhat of a betrayal to him.

It might tie into that heartbreaking decision in the finale . I believe that Clark's face (in more than one scene) saw a side of Chloe that shocked and surprised him in this episode. The looks were deliberate.

[Timester]

That's what I have a problem with too. My opinion being considered worthless because I'm a Chloe fan. It's quite obvious that nothing I say will matter because I'm blinded so there is no point in carrying on.

Well, maybe, I don't know, stopping false accusations might work...

And reading what people are REALLY trying to say...

----- Added 47 Seconds later -----


That is the problem, I mean I´ve seen people calling Chloe a lot of things, and if you are her fan and stand up for what you believe ..... your opinion doesn´t matter, you´re dellusional, you are blinded and stupid because you know If I am her fan I can´t set the difference between her being a good friend from a traitor .....

False accusations like these...

[Dustmite]

Well, maybe, I don't know, stopping false accusations might work...

And reading what people are REALLY trying to say...

I'm making accusations? Really?

And I am reading. Why the hell is it so impossible to believe that I might disagree? I think it's obvious that you don't think much of my views solet's leave it.

----- Added 56 Seconds later -----






False accusations like these...

It's not false. We've told in this thread that our views are held because we are blinded by emotion. It's not false at all.

[Mickey_Bickey]

Ah, fair enough lol.



Well im trying not to overspoil myself with the remaining episodes so i'm pretty much at a loss for the next few episodes. Except for Stiletto. I can't help myself with that one.

Good for you! I'm digging for whatever I can get!:lol:


I don't know. I guess it could be seen that way. Keeping Davis and keeping Doomsday at bay is technically making Doomsday stronger. Because the longer he stays inside, the more power and strength hes going to have when he finally comes out.

That's exactly it! He's going to be more powerful than Clark and probably is at this point. You saw the punch he gave Clark in Bride! I cringe at the thought of Clark dying .

[Timester]

It's not false. We've told in this thread that our views are held because we are blinded by emotion. It's not false at all.

Has anyone called you guys delusional?
Has anyone called you guys stupid?

Has anyone called Chloe a traitor?

[Dustmite]

Has anyone called you guys delusional?
Has anyone called you guys stupid?

Has anyone called Chloe a traitor?

No but it amounts to the same thing when our opnions are dismissed as worthless.

Yes they have.

[Jaderoyale]

That's exactly it! He's going to be more powerful than Clark and probably is at this point. You saw the punch he gave Clark in Bride! I cringe at the thought of Clark dying .

The thing is, i don't think Chloe realises that. Davis said he was immortal, i'm guessing that because Chloe knows Davis is kryptonian too, she thinks hes just like Clark in that sense. She doesn't know that he was genetic matter etc.
Though yes, that punch he gave Clark in Bride was terrible. It was the sound as he grabbed Clarks fist. But Clark still gave him all he had, he didn't hesitate as he went to punch him, which i can see him doing when they have their showdown in Doomsday

[Timester]

I'm making accusations? Really?

And I am reading. Why the hell is it so impossible to believe that I might disagree? I think it's obvious that you don't think much of my views solet's leave it.

"You" plural, not "you" just you. People are trying to figure out what was the message of the episode and is hard to do it when one is automatically accused of Chloe basher just because says the word "Chloe".

[Timester]

Yes they have.

That's the point, NO ONE called Chloe a traitor. NO ONE. I have read the entire thread and every single one in here is talking about the symbolism of what Tess said.

[Mickey_Bickey]

The thing is, i don't think Chloe realises that. Davis said was immortal, i'm guessing that because Chloe knows Davis is kryptonian too, she thinks hes just like Clark in that sense. She doesn't know that he was genetic matter etc.
Though yes, that punch he gave Clark in Bride was terrible. It was the sound as he grabbed Clarks fist. But Clark still gave him all he had, he didn't hesitate as he went to punch him, which i can see him doing when they have their showdown in Doomsday

Clark punched him, yet was stopped in his tracks!! Scary!!

Yes, it will be quite the showdown/smackdown, but I don't think Clark will come out the victor, because Doomsday is in the first few episodes next year as well .

[RedKRules]

False accusations like these...

Did I mention your name or anyone???? accusing people of baiting is also against the rules.

[Mickey_Bickey]

That's the point, NO ONE called Chloe a traitor. NO ONE. I have read the entire thread and every single one in here is talking about the symbolism of what Tess said.

That's true, and the speculation on who the Judas is has been being debated by those who know a lot about the Judas/Jesus relationship and how it applies to Smallville since it was mentioned a number of times in this episode.

It will be interesting to see Stiletto and know whether Chloe does indeed warn Clark or not.

[Jaderoyale]

Clark punched him, yet was stopped in his tracks!! Scary!!

Yes, it will be quite the showdown/smackdown, but I don't think Clark will come out the victor, because Doomsday is in the first few episodes next year as well .

Is he? Wheres that been said?
I was under the impression that Doomsday would be in the finale and maybe the season 9 premiere

[Mickey_Bickey]

Is he? Wheres that been said?
I was under the impression that Doomsday would be in the finale and maybe the season 9 premiere

Oh, I thought that the wrestler was going to be contracted for a couple of episodes. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'll have to go back and read it.. You're probably right! I'll have to go back and read it! LOL!!

[Jaderoyale]

It will be interesting to see Stiletto and know whether Chloe does indeed warn Clark or not.

This brings me back to what i said earlier. Warning Clark is going to set him off to stop Davis. Which i guess ultimately will lead to their fight, which won't be until Doomsday. And we have Injustice to watch yet, which is about Tess' injustice league, will Doomsday factor in this?

[Timester]

Did I mention your name or anyone???? accusing people of baiting is also against the rules.

You don't need to mention names. False accusations are false accusations, no matter to whom they are.

[costas22]

That's the point, NO ONE called Chloe a traitor. NO ONE. I have read the entire thread and every single one in here is talking about the symbolism of what Tess said.

I think that many people used that symbolism to characterize what Chloe did in the final scene.But i think that the Judas-Jesus analogy was used for Clark and Davis' relationship.Either way,the term Judas and traitor is wrong for Davis or Chloe since none of them did anything with an alterior motive.The Judas analogy might have worked on Lex.Sageeth was supposed to betray Naman,remember?

[Jaderoyale]

Oh, I thought that the wrestler was going to be contracted for a couple of episodes. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'll have to go back and read it.. You're probably right! I'll have to go back and read it! LOL!!

Its really a case of what happens in the Season finale.
Whether Clark manages to defeat Doomsday or not

[Bizarrolover]

If this does come true, do you think Clark will consider it a betrayal? I personally do especially when you consider the consequences it can have. By blinding Clark to Davis' existence she's affectively handing him a weapon, the element of surprise and the time to grow stronger.

I don't think Chloe is willingly betraying Clark, though, deep inside, she knows she whould be warning him about Davis' resurrection and that her futile attempt to kill him made him invulnerable to kryptonite and ruined one of the few chances Clark has to bring him down. I guess Chloe is still in denial about Davis and under the spell of his dimples.

Truly, I don't understand why she did what she did. I know it's incredibly poetic, and heroic but, for someone who is supposed to be the smartest character in Smallville, her actions are surprisingly stupid and naive. Chloe knows how difficult it is to kill a kryptonian, that it's practically impossible. Clark has been exposed to kryptonite for hours before and didn't die. Doomsday resurrects and comes back immune to what killed him. Did she really believe that a kryptonite shower would kill him definitively? And then she locks herself in a basement with him thinking that her mere presence would stop him from becoming the monster he really is. Does she really think this will work forever? It may, for a few days, but killing is in Davis nature and the moment will come when her presence will not soothe the beast anymore and he'll come out in a new killing spree. She'll be lucky if she isn't sliced on his way out.

The good part is that at least Oliver is aware that Doomsday resurrected (he was taking care of the details) and hopefully warned Clark about his disappearance. I know Clark will tell Chloe, but I doubt Chloe will inform him that she's hiding the monster in her basement.

[Mickey_Bickey]

I think that many people used that symbolism to characterize what Chloe did in the final scene.But i think that the Judas-Jesus analogy was used for Clark and Davis' relationship.Either way,the term Judas and traitor is wrong for Davis or Chloe since none of them did anything with an alterior motive.The Judas analogy might have worked on Lex.Sageeth was supposed to betray Naman,remember?

Costas, Davis isn't close enough to Clark to be Judas. Judas was one of his Apostles...his inner most circle!! You can't betray someone that you have no relationship with. Therefore, it can't be Davis. Tess got it wrong, but the audience knew this, at least those who are familiar with Judas and how he truly pertains to Jesus.

Lex never had Clark's trust either. Sorry, even if he were on the show, the only way to betray someone is if you are close to them, only if you their trust.

You don't have to have an alterior motive to betray. It can be done unintentionally, which I think that's what the writers have in store. It was foreshadowed when Chloe "untentionally" made Davis stronger by killing him with Kryptonite. Now, by aiding him and not warning Clark she will ultimately be betraying him. Clark has no idea that Davis is still alive. Only Chloe has that knowledge.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Its really a case of what happens in the Season finale.
Whether Clark manages to defeat Doomsday or not

Yes!! It's going to be action packed that's for sure!!!! Very intense too!!

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----



The good part is that at least Oliver is aware that Doomsday resurrected (he was taking care of the details) and hopefully warned Clark about his disappearance. I know Clark will tell Chloe, but I doubt Chloe will inform him that she's hiding the monster in her basement.

And the part I bolded is all that is needed by Chloe to betray Clark.:(

[RedKRules]

You don't need to mention names. False accusations are false accusations, no matter to whom they are.

Judas= Traitor ......

and about the false accusations ...... well it goes both ways

[Jack-El49]

That's true, and the speculation on who the Judas is has been being debated by those who know a lot about the Judas/Jesus relationship and how it applies to Smallville since it was mentioned a number of times in this episode.

It will be interesting to see Stiletto and know whether Chloe does indeed warn Clark or not.

I think not only won't she warn him, she'll go down a darker path to keep Doomsday at bay once her feminine charms no longer hold sway. The further away you get from doing the right thing, the worse it becomes.

Alerting Clark that DD was still alive and immortal could give Clark time to seek a solution. Telling Clark that she could hold the beast within for as long as she could while he searched for those answers or made a plan would have been the right thing to do.

My guess is he's going to find out at the last second when things get out of control for Chloe and she turns to Clark for help and it ends up getting Clark seriously injured or killed. If killed (as in SV killed), I think Chloe will be somewhat of a pariah around Clark. He may forgive her but he'll never trust her again because the tough question for Chloe to answer is, why didn't you tell me before now?

Theories would abound at the real answer to that question. The truth of that answer will hold the key to whether Chloe is perceived as Judas in the context of this series.

[costas22]

Costas, Davis isn't close enough to Clark to be Judas. Judas was one of his Apostles...his inner most circle!! You can't betray someone that you have no relationship with. Therefore, it can't be Davis. Tess got it wrong, but the audience knew this, at least those who are familiar with Judas and how he truly pertains to Jesus.

Lex never had Clark's trust either. Sorry, even if he were on the show, the only way to betray someone is if you are close to them, only if you their trust.

You don't have to have an alterior motive to betray. It can be done unintentionally, which I think that's what the writers have in store. It was foreshadowed when Chloe "untentionally" made Davis stronger by killing him with Kryptonite. Now, by aiding him and not warning Clark she will ultimately be betraying him. Clark has no idea that Davis is still alive. Only Chloe has that knowledge.


That's why i have said that the Judas analogy was a lousy one from the start.Because even if Chloe is Judas(which i doubt since Tess was talking with/about Davis eveytime she mentioned him and clearly meant him),she doesn't betray for a reward like Judas did.Judas didn't betray unintentionally.It was a bad day at the office for Kelly and Brian,let's just leave it at that.About Chloe making Davis stronger:it would have happened down the road anyway i feel.Let's wait until Beast and see how she might betray his trust there.At the moment she has just locked him in.Before i saw Eternal,i thought it was going to be worse.Let's see how it plays out.

[Timester]

Judas= Traitor ......

That's why I also said READ the threads. Since no one is calling her Judas.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


That's why i have said that the Judas analogy was a lousy one from the start.Because even if Chloe is Judas(which i doubt since Tess was talking with/about Davis eveytime she mentioned him and clearly meant him),she doesn't betray for a reward like Judas did.Judas didn't betray unintentionally.

Quite the opposite. Judas analogy was never used as a truth, but as a scenario/symbolism. As Judas the catalyst. Not Judas as Judas himself.

[Mickey_Bickey]

That's why i have said that the Judas analogy was a lousy one from the start.Because even if Chloe is Judas(which i doubt since Tess was talking with/about Davis eveytime she mentioned him and clearly meant him),she doesn't betray for a reward like Judas did.Judas didn't betray unintentionally.It was a bad day at the office for Kelly and Brian,let's just leave it at that.About Chloe making Davis stronger:it would have happened down the road anyway i feel.Let's wait until Beast and see how she might betray his trust there.At the moment she has just locked him in.Before i saw Eternal,i thought it was going to be worse.Let's see how it plays out.

Costas, it's nothing to do with the reward, and it's not to be taken in a literal sense but more of an analogy used to describe the relationship and action.

I actually didn't enjoy this episode as much as others because of the lightswitch with Chloe suddenly falling for Davis only two episodes after her marriage broke up, being very nasty to Clark, then having Tess turn into a Lex obssessed character type. The writing was definitely off, but they did make more than one reference to the Judas analogy which I think will have some bearing in the future episodes.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


I think not only won't she warn him, she'll go down a darker path to keep Doomsday at bay once her feminine charms no longer hold sway. The further away you get from doing the right thing, the worse it becomes.

Alerting Clark that DD was still alive and immortal could give Clark time to seek a solution. Telling Clark that she could hold the beast within for as long as she could while he searched for those answers or made a plan would have been the right thing to do.

My guess is he's going to find out at the last second when things get out of control for Chloe and she turns to Clark for help and it ends up getting Clark seriously injured or killed. If killed (as in SV killed), I think Chloe will be somewhat of a pariah around Clark. He may forgive her but he'll never trust her again because the tough question for Chloe to answer is, why didn't you tell me before now?

Theories would abound at the real answer to that question. The truth of that answer will hold the key to whether Chloe is perceived as Judas in the context of this series.

I think you make some really good points, and obviously we'll have to wait and see how this unfolds, but the strong references to Judas were definitely foreshadowing something IMO. I believe that between the buildup, the close relationship she has with Clark and the relationship (getting closer now) with Davis all points to her character being the one who is Judas in the upcoming episodes.

Honestly, I hope I'm wrong. I'd rather see her as the Watchtower. There's still hope.

[Jack-El49]

Quite the opposite. Judas analogy was never used as a truth, but as a scenario/symbolism. As Judas the catalyst. Not Judas as Judas himself.

Bruno - next time put that in like size 5 font because you must have said it a dozen times and that is exactly what Tess was saying but it seems some can't let go of the "betrayer - traitor" connotation at the mention of the name Judas, rather than the "catalyst for creating a saviour" connotation that Tess used.

[costas22]

Costas, it's nothing to do with the reward, and it's not to be taken in a literal sense but more of an analogy used to describe the relationship and action.

I actually didn't enjoy this episode as much as others because of the lightswitch with Chloe suddenly falling for Davis only two episodes after her marriage broke up, being very nasty to Clark, then having Tess turn into a Lex obssessed character type. The writing was definitely off, but they did make more than one reference to the Judas analogy which I think will have some bearing in the future episodes.

I realise it about the analogy.Timester mentioned Judas the catalyst and he was right.It's just that they should never use analogies that are nothing like the show's stories.And enough with the religion referrences anyway.The rest you say we agree upon.I wouldn't say Chloe is falling for Davis though.What was more annoying was that the only thing that she could call Jimmy was her best friend.I have girls as best friends and i started wondering why i never married them:rolleyes:.We both know the spoilers Michele and we know what is speculated to go down in the next 2 eppies.But as i said,i was expecting worse from Eternal and it didn't turn out as bad.Maybe their's hope yet that this show hasn't discovered Judas' long lost sister:p.

[Mickey_Bickey]

Quite the opposite. Judas analogy was never used as a truth, but as a scenario/symbolism. As Judas the catalyst. Not Judas as Judas himself.

And this is the part that I completely get in terms of what this show is doing. It's the symbolism that counts as you suggest. It's not that Chloe is going to sell Clark's secret for 30 pieces of silver.

[rebecavaldez]

I still believe it's Lex.

[Mickey_Bickey]

I realise it about the analogy.Timester mentioned Judas the catalyst and he was right.It's just that they should never use analogies that are nothing like the show's stories.And enough with the religion referrences anyway.The rest you say we agree upon.I wouldn't say Chloe is falling for Davis though.What was more annoying was that the only thing that she could call Jimmy was her best friend.I have girls as best friends and i started wondering why i never married them:rolleyes:.We both know the spoilers Michele and we know what is speculated to go down in the next 2 eppies.But as i said,i was expecting worse from Eternal and it didn't turn out as bad.Maybe their's hope yet that this show hasn't discovered Judas' long lost sister:p.

Costas, she said to Clark that she was having feelings for him. That's not my interpretation but actual dialogue from the show. Clark asked her about how she felt about him when they were talking about how Jimmy was right about him. Also, the flirting, giggling and carrying on was a strong indicator for me that Chloe likes him more than a friend.

That's the lightswitch I was talking about BTW, the whole now she's suddenly over Jimmy and swiftly moving on to Davis!:(

I hope that Chloe doesn't turn out to be the "Judas" in Clark's life, but that remains to be seen in Stiletto. If she doesn't warn him of Davis being alive or his whereabouts, then that's betrayal.

[Jack-El49]

I think you make some really good points, and obviously we'll have to wait and see how this unfolds, but the strong references to Judas were definitely foreshadowing something IMO. I believe that between the buildup, the close relationship she has with Clark and the relationship (getting closer now) with Davis all points to her character being the one who is Judas in the upcoming episodes.

Honestly, I hope I'm wrong. I'd rather see her as the Watchtower. There's still hope.

I would rather see her as Watchtower too and I have no doubt that we will. I used to think Chloe was the one biting the dust based on all the season's death anvils.

I think that what this season arc shows is that to protect the greater good, Chloe may adopt a more morally-gray persona which fits in well with Oliver but not so much with Clark and that is what changes their relationship forever. In fact, I believe that's how this whole Chlavis thing shakes out in the end. The will still be friends but no longer close friends because I don't think Clark will trust her like he did before after the Chlavis debacle.

Perhaps this is too off-topic for this thread though and is more appropriate to discuss elsewhere. ;)

[Mickey_Bickey]

I would rather see her as Watchtower too and I have no doubt that we will. I used to think Chloe was the one biting the dust based on all the season's death anvils.

I think that what this season arc shows is that to protect the greater good, Chloe may adopt a more morally-gray persona which fits in well with Oliver but not so much with Clark and that is what changes their relationship forever. In fact, I believe that's how this whole Chlavis thing shakes out in the end. The will still be friends but no longer close friends because I don't think Clark will trust her like he did before after the Chlavis debacle.

Perhaps this is too off-topic for this thread though and is more appropriate to discuss elsewhere. ;)

Actually, quite honestly I cannot see her character exiting on a sour note, so this storyline suggests that she will be the Watchtower to me to be redeemed perhaps in the finale or season opener. I'm still hoping.

[costas22]

I hope that Chloe doesn't turn out to be the "Judas" in Clark's life, but that remains to be seen in Stiletto. If she doesn't warn him of Davis being alive or his whereabouts, then that's betrayal. <!-- / message -->

That's the other problem she is faced with.What is Clark going to do if he finds out?Try to be brothers with the guy?She was right in the sense that Clark doesn't know when someone is a lost cause.About her having feelings,i did notice some hints.Maybe they wanted to show that it was the case until she found out his true nature?This is Smallville after all.Earlier in the season,she was jumping from the Clana to the Clois camp within a week.

[Mickey_Bickey]

That's the other problem she is faced with.What is Clark going to do if he finds out?Try to be brothers with the guy?She was right in the sense that Clark doesn't know when someone is a lost cause.About her having feelings,i did notice some hints.Maybe they wanted to show that it was the case until she found out his true nature?This is Smallville after all.Earlier in the season,she was jumping from the Clana to the Clois camp within a week.

Bad writing for sure!! Just like Watchtower to Judas!!:confused: Hopefully, the Watchtower will prevail!!:)

[Jack-El49]

Actually, quite honestly I cannot see her character exiting on a sour note, so this storyline suggests that she will be the Watchtower to me to be redeemed perhaps in the finale or season opener. I'm still hoping.

I don't thnk that will happen. I just think her relationship with Clark will be strained and I think he's never going to fully trust her again based on her decisions relative to Davis. It doesn't mean he'll have nothing to do with her but she won't be the trusted confidante that she's been in the past.


That's the other problem she is faced with.What is Clark going to do if he finds out?Try to be brothers with the guy?She was right in the sense that Clark doesn't know when someone is a lost cause.About her having feelings,i did notice some hints.Maybe they wanted to show that it was the case until she found out his true nature?This is Smallville after all.Earlier in the season,she was jumping from the Clana to the Clois camp within a week.


To be honest, I think if Chloe immediately warned Clark that DD was alive and that she could keep him at bay until he thought of something, that's all she would have had to do. Whether Clark would have done something immediately or devised a plan to eliminate the threat, the ball was in Clark's court at that point. It wasn't Clark who wanted DD dead.

I also don't blame Chloe's "morally-gray" decision to pull the lever. We can all sit around and say how horrible it is to kill but the truth is, had Hitler been assasinated early on; had Stalin been assasinated early on; how many fewer people would have suffered and died in history? Killing for the sake of killing is evil. Clark's position, I'm afraid, is unrealistic and why it is portrayed in the comics. In my opinion, you can't bargain with evil and you can't appease it. Trying to do that only delays the inevitable and results in greater suffering. If history teaches us anything, it teaches us that.

[Ginx]

After repeated offenses by various posters, this thread is closed temporarily.

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