A Lot of Christian symbolism

[princessdiana]

Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

Very interesting.

[green_arrow_girl358]

um deep? overthinking it a bit, there's symbolism but the show isn't an adaptation of the bible

[princessdiana]

Actually TPTB talked about this in season 1 and Superman has always been associated with Christ.

[Zach]

I agree that you're probably over thinking it. Some of the ideas from the bible are pretty general ideas that you can duplicate by accident pretty easily. For example: good verses evil, a hero coming from humble beginnings, a hero being raised by adoptive parents, somebody who used to a good guy descending into darkness and becoming the villain. A lot of these plot lines are even taken from mythology that predates the new testament.

[xrayvision]

If Davis thought he was doing God's work, why did he kill the nun (offscreen) in Prey? He still has her rosary hanging on his rear view mirror.

[chlo-el]

Well, not completely over thinking it. Al Mile admitted that Superman is symbolism of Christ. They showed that more in season 7.

And the religous symbolism in this ep was hard to ignore with Davis cross and him going to the priest. He was trying to feel human. It reminded me of Dare Devil. They have a lot of religous imagery. And then having him be the judge and excutioner.

[yomama]

If Davis thought he was doing God's work, why did he kill the nun (offscreen) in Prey? He still has her rosary hanging on his rear view mirror.

Apparently she was an evil nun.;)

[davidbrenton]

This is interesting. SR did this a great deal as well (Floating in christ's image to heal from the sun).

--I like the metaphors and symbolism....and can see how they can play the "catholic guilt" angle on Davis to heighten the urgency of his drama.

--It could also be religous satire in that the only religous person on Smallville is Doomsday...a symbolic form of the devil. That's funny.

It's interesting anyway you look at it really.

[Just Another Guy]

Zach is right about one thing. Every story is based on something rooted in the Bible. I think the Christianity comparison is interesting, because it admires Jesus, almost subconsciously. But I don't like it if it's emphasized intentionally, or it starts to become almost sacreligious, for lack of a better word. And I do think people read too much into it, based on the general standard of good vs. evil stories.

[dunkman]

I kind of don't like how they always associate the Bible with the bad guys on Smallville. Lionel & Lex were the only ones who ever made biblical references in past seasons, & now it's Davis. Superman is often portrayed as a symbol or type of Christ, similar to Joseph or Melchizedek. But when Superman "died" & came back it cannot be compared to Christ's resurrection!

[The Striving Artist®]

I actually thought the priest in this episode would make a good Jor-El voiceover replacement...he has the whole "My son" part down!

[colibri]

I do think they play with the religious imagery a bit with Superman but only to a point. Smallville doesn't really do it much but I admit that this episode had a lot of it. I don't think it was an accident either. I don't think that this is something that will happen constantly from here on out but I bet it will happen again in the finale.

The imagery between good and evil begs for it sometimes. Clark was clearly delineated as "good" both in deed and in words. Davis was a murderer and evil and the imagery of the devil came into play. The church scene at the beginning with the first scene showing Christ dead in Mary's arms, probably hinting at what's to come.

[moviefan2k4]

Taking into account the fact that Jerome Siegel and Joseph Shuster were both devout Jews, I'm not really surprised at the amount of symbolism in the Superman mythology. There's a ton of allusions to Scripture all over the place, from the names of the Kents (Jonathan and Martha), to Clark's Kryptonian name ("El" being a shortened form of Elohim, a Hebrew name for God). Plus you have Pete Ross, and villains named Apokalips and Doomsday, which both refer to the eventual Battle of Armageddon in the Book of Revelation.

[SupermanRox]

Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

Very interesting.

I think that this is very intriguing assessment of this episode.


Taking into account the fact that Jerome Siegel and Joseph Shuster were both devout Jews, I'm not really surprised at the amount of symbolism in the Superman mythology. There's a ton of allusions to Scripture all over the place, from the names of the Kents (Jonathan and Martha), to Clark's Kryptonian name ("El" being a shortened form of Elohim, a Hebrew name for God). Plus you have Pete Ross, and villains named Apokalips and Doomsday, which both refer to the eventual Battle of Armageddon in the Book of Revelation.

Proof positive that your thinking is right on the mark.

[yaseen101]

If Davis thought he was doing God's work, why did he kill the nun (offscreen) in Prey? He still has her rosary hanging on his rear view mirror.

That was from Prey before davis found out he could supress the beast by killing people. Doomsday killed the nun and the rosary was probably something was hanging off one of his spikes or something. Davis kept it because he wanted to feel human and be good.

[Skaterpen357]

I also noticed a bit of religious symbolism, but I'm not going to try to drag Chloe and Tess and everyone else into this. Davis and Clark, however, are two pretty big ones. The Jor-El/Clark dynamic plays into the whole Father/Son thing, and obviously Davis is trying the whole "Catholic guilt" thing, as davidbrenton mentioned. The cross, too, is significant, as has been mentioned before.

I also find it interesting that the Antichrist is supposed to be a peacemaker who falls to the side of evil. Davis is a paramedic who helps people in pain, and it seems that as of "Infamous," he's decided to stop trying to run from his destiny. (He may still try to put it off, but rather than really trying to suppress the beast with pills, he now murders people to help himself.)

Another thing is that the Antichrist is supposed to be very Christ-like in a deceptive kind of way, and Davis describes himself as being a Kryptonian. However, while he is from Krypton, he's not the same as Kal-El. He's a destroyer, while Kal-El is a hero.

In the preview for next week's episode, it looks like Davis ended up being right there with Kal-El; this further marks them as foils, in a way, I think.

When I first heard Doomsday was going to be a kind paramedic struggling with a darkness within, I was skeptical; that was completely non-Doomsday-like. However, this season really made me like that aspect, and I think Davis' path is a really interesting one, especially in religious context.

I've always liked seeing Superman as a mythic figure (ironic, seeing as how my first real Superman experience was watching a show that tries to humanize him), so I'm all for comparing him to Christ. With Doomsday taking this route on SV, though, the Antichrist thing makes it all the more interesting to watch, I think.

[kryptonhero25]

he's not over thinking the christian symbolism at all. a big deal of superman is rooted in the figure of christ and his story. Jesus was God's only son sent to be our savior. Clark was sent by Jor-el as his only son to save the world. Like jesus, clark was raised by adoptive parents altough mary was the real mother of jesus. jesus had his temple and clark has the fortress of solitude as his temple. clark has this mystical voice and all powerful father as did jesus have an all powerful and mystical father/god. as said above, jesus dies in mary's arms just like how clark dies in lois's arms even though that is probably just a coincidence. as Christians are taught, jesus never sinned just like how Clark can almost never do evil. i could go on and on about the comparisons but i'll stop because this is about smallville not about religion and i'm not about to preach. but the comparisons are undeniable.

[Just Another Guy]

he's not over thinking the christian symbolism at all. a big deal of superman is rooted in the figure of christ and his story. Jesus was God's only son sent to be our savior. Clark was sent by Jor-el as his only son to save the world. Like jesus, clark was raised by adoptive parents altough mary was the real mother of jesus. jesus had his temple and clark has the fortress of solitude as his temple. clark has this mystical voice and all powerful father as did jesus have an all powerful and mystical father/god. as said above, jesus dies in mary's arms just like how clark dies in lois's arms even though that is probably just a coincidence. as Christians are taught, jesus never sinned just like how Clark can almost never do evil. i could go on and on about the comparisons but i'll stop because this is about smallville not about religion and i'm not about to preach. but the comparisons are undeniable.
I'm pretty sure everyone knows the similarities. But it's still overanalyzed at times. And just to be thorough, Jesus did not die in Mary's arms.

[workshyslacker]

Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

Very interesting.

Hmm.

Can I add that Tess tried to "Delilah" her way into Clark's (Samson's) trust? ;)

[ClarkyBoy14]

Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

Very interesting.

Interesting observations. :) It'll be interesting to see if it turns out this way.

[chlo-el]

I also noticed a bit of religious symbolism, but I'm not going to try to drag Chloe and Tess and everyone else into this. Davis and Clark, however, are two pretty big ones. The Jor-El/Clark dynamic plays into the whole Father/Son thing, and obviously Davis is trying the whole "Catholic guilt" thing, as davidbrenton mentioned. The cross, too, is significant, as has been mentioned before.

I also find it interesting that the Antichrist is supposed to be a peacemaker who falls to the side of evil. Davis is a paramedic who helps people in pain, and it seems that as of "Infamous," he's decided to stop trying to run from his destiny. (He may still try to put it off, but rather than really trying to suppress the beast with pills, he now murders people to help himself.)

Another thing is that the Antichrist is supposed to be very Christ-like in a deceptive kind of way, and Davis describes himself as being a Kryptonian. However, while he is from Krypton, he's not the same as Kal-El. He's a destroyer, while Kal-El is a hero.

In the preview for next week's episode, it looks like Davis ended up being right there with Kal-El; this further marks them as foils, in a way, I think.

When I first heard Doomsday was going to be a kind paramedic struggling with a darkness within, I was skeptical; that was completely non-Doomsday-like. However, this season really made me like that aspect, and I think Davis' path is a really interesting one, especially in religious context.

I've always liked seeing Superman as a mythic figure (ironic, seeing as how my first real Superman experience was watching a show that tries to humanize him), so I'm all for comparing him to Christ. With Doomsday taking this route on SV, though, the Antichrist thing makes it all the more interesting to watch, I think.

I don't like the comparison of Davis as the Antichrist since Davis has no free will. He has no choice in the matter. And he doesn't want to hurt anyone. He's choosing the lesser of two evils. Even anyone is the antichrist it's Lex. Although Davis does foil Clark a lot. It's still a disturbing hought that there's nothing he could do about turning evil. Theonly way to stop the beast is to commit more evil acts. The whole lack of free will thing and being doomed to be evil no matter how hard you try is distrubing. But it seems they do have symbolism of redemption, with Davis holding the cross and then with Chloe stopping the transformation with a touch.

[kryptonhero25]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows the similarities. But it's still overanalyzed at times. And just to be thorough, Jesus did not die in Mary's arms.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that Jesus died in Mary's arms. Obviously, he died on the cross but I meant to say that Mary cradled him and held his dead body like how Lois did with Clark.

[Skaterpen357]

I don't like the comparison of Davis as the Antichrist since Davis has no free will. He has no choice in the matter. And he doesn't want to hurt anyone. He's choosing the lesser of two evils. Even anyone is the antichrist it's Lex. Although Davis does foil Clark a lot. It's still a disturbing hought that there's nothing he could do about turning evil. Theonly way to stop the beast is to commit more evil acts. The whole lack of free will thing and being doomed to be evil no matter how hard you try is distrubing. But it seems they do have symbolism of redemption, with Davis holding the cross and then with Chloe stopping the transformation with a touch.
I know it wouldn't work, and so does he, probably, but the writers made a conscious effort to show Davis throwing away his pills. They weren't doing a thing, but it was still a significant choice Davis made.

Besides, who says the Antichrist has free will? :cool:

If I had to compare outside of Clark and Davis, though, I'd say Lex is more a Judas, and Zod is Satan. But that's just me.

Davis' whole do evil to prevent evil thing is tragic, though. Makes Zod that much more Satan-like.

[SGuthrie27]

Wow, you did have some pretty interesting observations, princessdiana. I wouldn't have thought about the picture in that light, but it is pretty similar to the iconic Lois & dead Clark (killed by Doomsday) pose from the comics, and they were really playing up the religious overtones and imagery in that scene with Davis in confessional. I don't know that they were necessarily trying to typecast Chloe, Tess, and Jimmy into other Biblical character roles, but it would be intriguing if they really had meant to take things in that route, nonetheless. Very good food for thought!

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[smeyer44]

Here's my two cents on the parallels:

Jor-El = God: He sends his only son to save and protect mankind. He was also particularly vengeful in the early seasons (much like the Old Testament).

Clark/Supes = Jesus: For obvious reasons

Zod = Satan: Wants to rule Earth (and re-create Krypton, which would be like Satan ruling Heaven) and destroy humanity, which he sees as inferior.

Lex = Lucifer: Did not start out as bad, but falls from grace and embraces total darkness. Granted, this might ignore some stories from his youth (Reunion), but I choose to believe that he wasnt evil in the early going.

I would say that Doomsday is more or less a tool of Satan, given that he doesnt have free will in the end. No matter what you think of Davis's free will, the fact is that he cant fight it forever, so to me that means he has no free will. (although I do like Skaterpen's Antichrist analysis). As for everyone else, I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any comparisons there

I feel like I'm on the Supernatural board

[Just Another Guy]

Here's my two cents on the parallels:

Jor-El = God: He sends his only son to save and protect mankind. He was also particularly vengeful in the early seasons (much like the Old Testament).

Clark/Supes = Jesus: For obvious reasons

Zod = Satan: Wants to rule Earth (and re-create Krypton, which would be like Satan ruling Heaven) and destroy humanity, which he sees as inferior.

Lex = Lucifer: Did not start out as bad, but falls from grace and embraces total darkness. Granted, this might ignore some stories from his youth (Reunion), but I choose to believe that he wasnt evil in the early going.

I would say that Doomsday is more or less a tool of Satan, given that he doesnt have free will in the end. No matter what you think of Davis's free will, the fact is that he cant fight it forever, so to me that means he has no free will.

I feel like I'm on the Supernatural board
Lucifer is Satan.

[smeyer44]

my bad, I even checked quick to see. Thats what I get for only reading the google seearch page. In my defense, there is some discussion as to whether that is true or not. But I will admit I'm wrong:

"To summarize, the Hebrew word helel is translated "Lucifer." He was cast out of heaven for his sin of pride and his desire to be God. Jesus referred to seeing Satan being cast out of heaven. Therefore, we can conclude that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same." - From some Bible site

Man, do I feel like a horse's patoot.

Well at least Lex is the Vessel

[Alicia Chipy]

There is a book The gospels according to Superman about this.

[Just Another Guy]

my bad, I even checked quick to see. Thats what I get for only reading the google seearch page. In my defense, there is some discussion as to whether that is true or not. But I will admit I'm wrong:

"To summarize, the Hebrew word helel is translated "Lucifer." He was cast out of heaven for his sin of pride and his desire to be God. Jesus referred to seeing Satan being cast out of heaven. Therefore, we can conclude that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same." - From some Bible site

Man, do I feel like a horse's patoot.

Well at least Lex is the Vessel
Don't feel too bad about it. The name Lucifer is only used once in the Bible, rather vaguely. It takes a lot of understanding and studying to even know how the two can be one and the same. I do not have a lot of that understanding on my own, but there are people smarter than me who have studied and explained it, and I'm finally starting to see these things for myself.

Zod would still fit the bill, if we're looking to create an analogy. I suppose Lex would have to be Judas, in this version. Except that Judas immediately regretted his sins and committed suicide. Lex just keeps getting worse. :o

[topping82]

Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

Very interesting.

There was definitely religious symbolism. But I don't think Davis is supposed to be Satan. I think he's supposed to be a character looking for redemption, and Chloe might be it.

I also don't think there was anything related to Lois and Superman in those images. I think it was all about Davis seeking salvation. Hence why he's standing in the rain and then looking up at Chloe.

She "saved" him.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


i don't like the comparison of davis as the antichrist since davis has no free will. He has no choice in the matter. And he doesn't want to hurt anyone. He's choosing the lesser of two evils. Even anyone is the antichrist it's lex. Although davis does foil clark a lot. It's still a disturbing hought that there's nothing he could do about turning evil. Theonly way to stop the beast is to commit more evil acts. The whole lack of free will thing and being doomed to be evil no matter how hard you try is distrubing. But it seems they do have symbolism of redemption, with davis holding the cross and then with chloe stopping the transformation with a touch.

i 100% agree.

[chlo-el]

I know it wouldn't work, and so does he, probably, but the writers made a conscious effort to show Davis throwing away his pills. They weren't doing a thing, but it was still a significant choice Davis made.

Besides, who says the Antichrist has free will? :cool:

If I had to compare outside of Clark and Davis, though, I'd say Lex is more a Judas, and Zod is Satan. But that's just me.

Davis' whole do evil to prevent evil thing is tragic, though. Makes Zod that much more Satan-like.

Yeah I wasn't sure about the whole anti-christ thing does the anti-christ not have free will then.

I don't think Davis had much of a choice when he threw away the pills though. I think your right about Zod being the devil.

[chlavisbug]

i'm just suprised that doomsday is a christian!

[chlo-el]

i'm just suprised that doomsday is a christian!

Doomsday isn't Davis is. That shows that Davis has tried to be good prob most of his life and just shows how tragic his situation is. I magine how horrible it would be to be a devout christian and always try to be good and all of the sudden you find out your evil and there is nothing you can do about it. It's just toooo tragic for words.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----


Here's my two cents on the parallels:

Jor-El = God: He sends his only son to save and protect mankind. He was also particularly vengeful in the early seasons (much like the Old Testament).

Clark/Supes = Jesus: For obvious reasons

Zod = Satan: Wants to rule Earth (and re-create Krypton, which would be like Satan ruling Heaven) and destroy humanity, which he sees as inferior.

Lex = Lucifer: Did not start out as bad, but falls from grace and embraces total darkness. Granted, this might ignore some stories from his youth (Reunion), but I choose to believe that he wasnt evil in the early going.

I would say that Doomsday is more or less a tool of Satan, given that he doesnt have free will in the end. No matter what you think of Davis's free will, the fact is that he cant fight it forever, so to me that means he has no free will. (although I do like Skaterpen's Antichrist analysis). As for everyone else, I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any comparisons there

I feel like I'm on the Supernatural board

Those are good camparisons. Lex is more like Lucifer since he is fallen. Lex had tried to be good but chose to be bad and embrace his darkness.

And I do think Doomsday is a tool of Satan he is more like a demon with no free will. And Davis is more like someone who is possessed by a demon.

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

i'm just suprised that doomsday is a christian!

He is?


Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

Very interesting.

Great examples! Except, Jesus didn't die in Mary's arms. (He died on the cross, but was resurrected three days later! :D)

I could honestly see Tess or Chloe being the Judas in Smallville. Honestly, Chloe is becoming that, because she starting to turn to the wrong person and will probably end up betraying Clark. :( But, Tess is also a good candidate.

I am a Christian, so its always awesome to see Biblical similarities in Smallville! :)

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


Here's my two cents on the parallels:

Jor-El = God: He sends his only son to save and protect mankind. He was also particularly vengeful in the early seasons (much like the Old Testament).

Clark/Supes = Jesus: For obvious reasons

Zod = Satan: Wants to rule Earth (and re-create Krypton, which would be like Satan ruling Heaven) and destroy humanity, which he sees as inferior.

Lex = Lucifer: Did not start out as bad, but falls from grace and embraces total darkness. Granted, this might ignore some stories from his youth (Reunion), but I choose to believe that he wasnt evil in the early going.

I would say that Doomsday is more or less a tool of Satan, given that he doesnt have free will in the end. No matter what you think of Davis's free will, the fact is that he cant fight it forever, so to me that means he has no free will. (although I do like Skaterpen's Antichrist analysis). As for everyone else, I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any comparisons there

I feel like I'm on the Supernatural board

I agree with this, but Lucifer and Satan are the same person. Lex symbolizes Lucifer/Satan, because he started out good (in Heaven, Lucifer was in charge of the praise), but then wanted to control everything. He thought he was better than everyone.

[monel49]

I was glad to see this thread because the nods to Christian and Jewish Symbolism are intended particularly by the directors of the films. As others have said, we're supposed to catch the references. Clark--mild mannered reporter yet Superman; Jesus--carpenter yet God's Son. The El reference has already been mentioned as the Hebrew word for God. And who can forget the great Marlon Brando saying, "And so I send you, my own beloved son" in the movies. By the way, the picture in the episode is of the Blessed Virgin Mary cradling Jesus. Also, did you all know that Martha Kent's name in the original Superman comics was "Mary" for a while.

I think that Smallville has made the same types of references. The "crucifixion" scene from the pilot as well as the references to Clark's immortal nature--he does not die. (Does anyone remember what ep that reference popped up in?). And, of course, SV has Jor-El saying that Kal-el will be a god on earth among men. All in all, pretty cool stuff. We aren't supposed to always be thinking of Clark/Superman = Jesus, but it marinates in the unconscious and makes us love the Superman mythos all the more.

[ClubXerxes]

We saw this early one - the images of Clark standing next to angelic statues in the cemetary...we are clearly meant to see a Christ like symbol, so you are definitely on the right track and certainly NOT overthinking this.

More parallels (just to add to the list):

Christ/Superman is a savior for mankind
Antichrist/Doomsday is a destroyer of mankind

Antichrist is associated with end of days (doomsday - end of the world)
Doomsday is noted for "bony protrusions", much like horns - Beast of Daniel and Revelation has "Ten horns"

[cody]

Cool thoughts. It's always fun to analyze things in different ways:)

[Just Another Guy]

i'm just suprised that doomsday is a christian!
Desperate is more like it. No real person ever has to deal with the sci-fi curse of a Kryptonian beast, but... I'll go on record as saying that Doomsday would be helpless against God's deliverance. :) And despite Davis' lack of freedom (though we can't condemn him for lack of trying other avenues), a true Christian would not resort to killing people. However, one definition of the word "Christian" is literally just someone who believes in Christ, so I suppose I could concede there.


Those are good camparisons. Lex is more like Lucifer since he is fallen. Lex had tried to be good but chose to be bad and embrace his darkness.

And I do think Doomsday is a tool of Satan he is more like a demon with no free will. And Davis is more like someone who is possessed by a demon.
Lex definitely fits the Lucifer bill, but a demon-possessed individual seldom has the compassion, competence, or conscience that Davis has.


Except, Jesus didn't die in Mary's arms. (He died on the cross, but was resurrected three days later! :D)

I agree with this, but Lucifer and Satan are the same person. Lex symbolizes Lucifer/Satan, because he started out good (in Heaven, Lucifer was in charge of the praise), but then wanted to control everything. He thought he was better than everyone.
I already brought up the Mary and Lucifer points. It was just an honest mistake.

But since you bring up Lucifer, I've often wondered where people get some of the notions they have concerning his position in heaven. Being in charge of praise, for instance. Is there even a line in the Bible to halfway support that theory? :confused:


I could honestly see Tess or Chloe being the Judas in Smallville. Honestly, Chloe is becoming that, because she starting to turn to the wrong person and will probably end up betraying Clark. :( But, Tess is also a good candidate.
If they do that with Chloe, these producers would become fools in my eyes.

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

I already brought up the Mary and Lucifer points. It was just an honest mistake.

But since you bring up Lucifer, I've often wondered where people get some of the notions they have concerning his position in heaven. Being in charge of praise, for instance. Is there even a line in the Bible to halfway support that theory? :confused:

After posting that, I noticed it. Yeah, there is a verse that does say so. Let me find it and I'll post it.

[RedArrow62]

For anyone who is interested, There is a book available on Amazon called Who needs a Superhero. It is a very good read. It not only compares Superman but also Batman, Ironman, Wonderwoman and many others.

[Supsfan]

I don't think it's exactly Christian symbolism, just religious symbolism in general. There was hundreds of gods before Jesus who shared similar tales(12 helpers, virgin birth, risen from dead, god sent him to earth, etc etc been there done that).

Going by Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern Checklist

http://missy.reimer.com/library/scale.html


Lord Raglan, in The Hero (1936) has classified the parallel life-patterns of the mythical hero of tradition into twenty-two archetypal incidents, as noted below. The higher a particular hero scores, the closer he is to the UR-archetype of the sacred hero-king of prehistoric religious ritual; a historical hero is likely to share rather few of the mythical characteristics.

The Scale

The hero's mother is a royal virgin.
His father is a king and
often a near relative of the mother, but
the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
he is also reputed to be the son of a god
at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
He is spirited away, and
reared by foster-parents in a far country.
We are told nothing of his childhood, but
on reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
he marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
becomes king.
For a time he reigns uneventfully and
prescribes laws but
later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
is driven from from the throne and the city after which
He meets with a mysterious death
often at the top of a hill.
His children, if any, do not succeed him.
His body is not buried, but nevertheless
he has one or more holy sepulchres.
Superman scores 9, for Comparison Jesus scores 18 and Krishna tops the chart being 21 for 21.

[Lilah]

There is a book The gospels according to Superman about this.

I actually have it. It's a really great book. I especially laughed at the Billy Hymn reference in this episode.

[Tompouce]

Your posts are interesting. The thing is in all stories (fairy tales, books, movies, ...)you have a hero, a villain, a redemption or not,...It is just about how the world goes. It is about Mankind. So obviously you find these facets whatever you want to do.
I am always stunned when I watch or read some fictional movies/books : you can be in a complete different world but the thing which doesn't change (or which can not be different in our imagination)is our humanity. Aliens have always the same feelings as us : angst, joy, love, hatred,...It is just funny how nobody can imagine feelings we don't have. We can imagine powers but not a different emotional way of being. I hope I am clear, I am really not sure lol
So back to the topic, I find some of you maybe overanalyze Superman/Jesus but the most important is this : I think we all need to think a hero/god,...can save us. But Superman means Hope, talking about God, Allah,...is about Faith. It is different. IMO

[stenochick]

If you guys enjoy discovering the underlying symbolism in the Superman myth, may I suggest the writings of Joseph Campbell? He wrote "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" among many others. I listened to an interview he did back in the 80's on how universal mythology is and all the different archetypes, including the hero archetype and was completely fascinated.

The Christian story of Jesus as savior is a hero myth in and of itself (if you choose to look at it as myth), so it makes sense that there would be parallels with other hero myths such as Superman, or the Matrix trilogy, or The Chronicles of Narnia. There are many to choose from.

We love these stories because they point us back to Jesus if we are Christians, or spirituality in general if we are not.

[Malicieux Toutou]

Clark is analogous to Christ, and you could say that Davis is analogous to the anti-Christ. But I don't think any of the other characters really have a biblical counterpart.

[Supsfan]

Clark is analogous to Christ, and you could say that Davis is analogous to the anti-Christ. But I don't think any of the other characters really have a biblical counterpart.

At times i think TPTB think Lana is the virgin Mary

[Tompouce]

If you guys enjoy discovering the underlying symbolism in the Superman myth, may I suggest the writings of Joseph Campbell? He wrote "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" among many others. I listened to an interview he did back in the 80's on how universal mythology is and all the different archetypes, including the hero archetype and was completely fascinated.

The Christian story of Jesus as savior is a hero myth in and of itself (if you choose to look at it as myth), so it makes sense that there would be parallels with other hero myths such as Superman, or the Matrix trilogy, or The Chronicles of Narnia. There are many to choose from.

We love these stories because they point us back to Jesus if we are Christians, or spirituality in general if we are not.
Thanks (again, since two weeks all your posts are exactly what I am trying to say but they are much better than mine ). It was what I meant in my post above;)

[stenochick]

At times i think TPTB think Lana is the virgin Mary

It seems like a lot of times in Smallville, Lana's role has been similar to Satan tempting Jesus in the desert. To see it really vividly, rewatch "Labyrinth" with your Bible open to Matthew, chapter 4.

...Please, God, don't let this post cause a shipper war on a spiritually-themed thread. Amen. :)

[moviefan2k4]

At times I think TPTB think Lana is the virgin MaryThat whole aspect of Lana's character got thrown out the window in Season 1's "Nicodemus", when she practically threw herself at Clark under the influence of a re-engineered plant toxin. It only got worse from there, and by Season 6 it seemed like the phrase "sexual morality" had completely escaped the writers' minds. I'm still thankful it's not as blatant as "Gossip Girl", though; the ads alone convinced me to steer clear.

[Just Another Guy]

The Christian story of Jesus as savior is a hero myth in and of itself (if you choose to look at it as myth), so it makes sense that there would be parallels with other hero myths such as Superman, or the Matrix trilogy, or The Chronicles of Narnia. There are many to choose from.
Except that Jesus was here to save our souls, not to stop the badguys. Not that there's anything wrong with stopping badguys. (I don't see it as a myth. But that's off-topic.)


Clark is analogous to Christ, and you could say that Davis is analogous to the anti-Christ. But I don't think any of the other characters really have a biblical counterpart.
I don't mind the symbolic irony of the comparison, but I tend to agree with you. Always looking for the similarities in pop culture threatens to cheapen scripture.


That whole aspect of Lana's character got thrown out the window in Season 1's "Nicodemus", when she practically threw herself at Clark under the influence of a re-engineered plant toxin. It only got worse from there, and by Season 6 it seemed like the phrase "sexual morality" had completely escaped the writers' minds. I'm still thankful it's not as blatant as "Gossip Girl", though; the ads alone convinced me to steer clear.
THANK YOU! I agree wholeheartedly. But I'd back it up to the beginning of S5. True, she may have been sleeping with Clark instead of Lex. But the problem was Clark sleeping with Lana.

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

To be honest, I am still looking for that verse. I didn't look much last night. But, I guarantee that it is in the Bible. I have read the verse(s) where it said Lucifer was in charge of the praise in Heaven.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


That whole aspect of Lana's character got thrown out the window in Season 1's "Nicodemus", when she practically threw herself at Clark under the influence of a re-engineered plant toxin. It only got worse from there, and by Season 6 it seemed like the phrase "sexual morality" had completely escaped the writers' minds. I'm still thankful it's not as blatant as "Gossip Girl", though; the ads alone convinced me to steer clear.

Is it true KK didn't like the sex scenes in Smallville? I remember reading about that somewhere.

Like Just Another Guy said, thank you! Season 6 should have been called Season Sex because of most of the episodes involved some type of sexual innuendo. I agree! The previews themselves make me stay away! Why does TV/Movies think the only way to show that you really love someone is through sex?

[Just Another Guy]

To be honest, I am still looking for that verse. I didn't look much last night. But, I guarantee that it is in the Bible. I have read the verse(s) where it said Lucifer was in charge of the praise in Heaven.
I hope you find what you're looking for. But if I'm giving you my honest opinion, I don't think it's actually in the Bible. If it is, it almost certainly doesn't use the name Lucifer. That only appears once, in Isaiah. And it calls him a bright morning star, or something to that effect. So if he was said to have been the leader of praise, or something, it would have to be under a different name, or some other prophetic symbolism.

But keep looking. I'm very interested. :) You'll have to forgive me for my "I'll believe it when I see it" mentality. But I never go by what I hear, for fear of giving someone else false information.


Like Just Another Guy said, thank you! Season 6 should have been called Season Sex because of most of the episodes involved some type of sexual innuendo. I agree! The previews themselves make me stay away! Why does TV/Movies think the only way to show that you really love someone is through sex?
And the thing is, as lightly as those sort of relationships are tossed about on TV now, it still shouldn't be present in Superman. Even Superman 2 is considered a mistake for having Superman and Lois do their thing at the Fortress.

Even without the spiritual aspect, Superman should be more virtuous than that.

[RedArrow62]

The reference I believe you are looking for is Isaiah 14:12-14

[moviefan2k4]

Except that Jesus was here to save our souls, not to stop the badguys. Not that there's anything wrong with stopping badguys. (I don't see it as a myth. But that's off-topic.)


I don't mind the symbolic irony of the comparison, but I tend to agree with you. Always looking for the similarities in pop culture threatens to cheapen scripture.


THANK YOU! I agree wholeheartedly. But I'd back it up to the beginning of S5. True, she may have been sleeping with Clark instead of Lex. But the problem was Clark sleeping with Lana.The bigger problem was Clark sleeping with anyone outside of marriage, and the show practically endorsing it. It's bad enough that other characters were like that (Lois and Lex, for example), but when Clark joined the "shackup club" it really ticked me off.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


And the thing is, as lightly as those sort of relationships are tossed about on TV now, it still shouldn't be present in Superman. Even Superman 2 is considered a mistake for having Superman and Lois do their thing at the Fortress.Yep; Margot Kidder even says she now thinks it was a bad move for the film. If there were some way to edit it out for a fan version, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


Even without the spiritual aspect, Superman should be more virtuous than that.Exactly. How are folks supposed to look up to someone who makes the same dumb decisions they do, on a regular basis no less? What's so honorable or inspiring about that?

Oh, and the word "lucifer" is Latin for "day star", while "satan" is often translated as "adversary".

[Just Another Guy]

The bigger problem was Clark sleeping with anyone outside of marriage, and the show practically endorsing it. It's bad enough that other characters were like that (Lois and Lex, for example), but when Clark joined the "shackup club" it really ticked me off.
Agreed. I didn't mean that Clark's actions were questionable simply because it was Lana. I meant because he did it at all.

And I agree with you that the other characters are bad enough, but at least Lois is a military brat who tends to run wild in her youth. Lex, on the other hand, is no big deal. He was hardly raised with high standards, and is destined to become a villain. What I do have a problem with is having to see his extracurriculur activities for ourselves.


Yep; Margot Kidder even says she now thinks it was a bad move for the film. If there were some way to edit it out for a fan version, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I was actually rememering her quote when I wrote that.


Exactly. How are folks supposed to look up to someone who makes the same dumb decisions they do, on a regular basis no less? What's so honorable or inspiring about that?
Right. I like to see the human side of Clark Kent, but he's supposed to be the finest example of human potential. Not a conformist.


Oh, and the word "lucifer" is Latin for "day star", while "satan" is often translated as "adversary".
Hm. I suppose the term was probably day star, then.

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

The bigger problem was Clark sleeping with anyone outside of marriage, and the show practically endorsing it. It's bad enough that other characters were like that (Lois and Lex, for example), but when Clark joined the "shackup club" it really ticked me off.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

Yep; Margot Kidder even says she now thinks it was a bad move for the film. If there were some way to edit it out for a fan version, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Exactly. How are folks supposed to look up to someone who makes the same dumb decisions they do, on a regular basis no less? What's so honorable or inspiring about that?

Oh, and the word "lucifer" is Latin for "day star", while "satan" is often translated as "adversary".

I agree with every word in this post! Really? I didn't know that last part.

[moviefan2k4]

Is it true KK didn't like the sex scenes in Smallville? I remember reading about that somewhere.I think Kristin once mentioned in an interview that she insisted on a body double for the closeups in "Nicodemus", but I don't know for certain what her stance was on the "Clana shackup" scenes.


Why do TV/Movies think the only way to show that you really love someone is through sex?In the end, the majority of television and film companies only care about one thing above all else...money. They know that putting sexual situations on the screen will get a bunch of horny people to watch, so they take advantage of that to boost ratings, and in turn get more money. So long as their deep pockets are full, they generally don't seem to care about the moral aspects much, if at all. :(

[Supsfan]

It seems like a lot of times in Smallville, Lana's role has been similar to Satan tempting Jesus in the desert. To see it really vividly, rewatch "Labyrinth" with your Bible open to Matthew, chapter 4.

Lol, I always remember the beginning scene in Ageless(how I would love to forget) where Lana and Clark find the baby, I was like what the hell, are they trying to recreate the nativity scene or something

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

In the end, the majority of television and film companies only care about one thing above all else...money. They know that putting sexual situations on the screen will get a bunch of horny people to watch, so they take advantage of that to boost ratings, and in turn get more money. So long as their deep pockets are full, they generally don't seem to care about the moral aspects much, if at all. :(

Money seems to be America's god right now. That's sad, but true. Of course they don't care about morals, to them, its one big joke. Its sad what it has come to. It really is.

[moviefan2k4]

Lol, I always remember the beginning scene in Ageless, where Lana and Clark find the baby. I was like, "What the hell? Are they trying to recreate the Nativity scene or something?"I saw it more as an attempt to mirror the pilot episode, where Jonathan & Martha find Kal-El near an impact crater. Interestingly, the baby's mother in that episode was portrayed by actress Pascale Hutton, who would later surface as "Raya" in Season 6.

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

I saw it more as an attempt to mirror the pilot episode, where Jonathan & Martha find Kal-El near an impact crater.

Yep, I agree.

----- Added 41 Seconds later -----


I think Kristin once mentioned in an interview that she insisted on a body double for the closeups in "Nicodemus", but I don't know for certain what her stance was on the "Clana shackup" scenes.

Well, here's a quote I found on TV.com:

Kristin: (About being a sex symbol for her fans) I kind of ignore it. I kind of don't pay attention to it. It's not me. That's that person and I'm this person.
(http://www.tv.com/usersubmission/celebrity_quotes.html?celeb_id=20543&blurb_id=2732635)

[Skaterpen357]

So...I guess Tess is comparing Doomsday to Judas now. Interesting route.