So Chloe did kill sebastian w/o BrainIAC's influence

[unfocused]

Allison is such a great actress, she actually made me pity Chloe with her sad attempt at blaming her BrainIAC infection on the murder. "It wasn't me, it was BrainIAC." *head down, innocent look, feign weakness*

Thankfully, Oliver is smarter than that. Secret for secret, Chloe keeps his secret of murdering Lex, while he keeps her secret of murdering Sebastian. So dark, I love it, Smallville!!

These two are going to need some redemption. They really have gone pretty far into the deep end and I wonder who's going to have to pull them back :rolleyes:

So, all that's left for Chloe to do is own up to it. The fact that she was even aware that she killed Sebastian but still kept it a secret makes her responsible. Now she just needs to stop lying to herself.

[dru-zod2501]

I'm still not entirely convinced.

Call me blind to any or all of Chloe's faults, but Oliver's accusation doesn't amount to corroborating evidence in my book. The credibility is shaky at best, especially after what he did tonight of his own free will.

[unfocused]

Yeah, Chloe killed the guy. The whole point of Oliver telling her he has proof of that murder was so that she will let him get away with his own murder.

I'll give some friendly advice and suggest you prepare yourself for it. This scene was a set up for a future scene that will reveal the truth clearly for you.

[BadToad]

That is definitely what they were suggesting. If she hadn't? Then Chloe would've been all up in Oliver's face, telling him whats what. But she didn't. She immediately fell in line with his thinking.

Lots of characters taking hits in this monstrosity, and Chloe was one of them.

[Veilleuse]

I love Chloe too, but I've got to admit, I'm with unfocused. I always suspected that the killing of Sebastian wasn't entirely Brainiac's doing and the way Chloe came off in "Requiem"? There was guilt, but she also came off like the cat caught with it's paw in the bird cage. Topped off with her tirade at Clark in Ollie's private jet? About her complicity with Ollie's mindset that Lex deserves to get killed (because he's a threat to Clark, the same reason Chloe/Chloiac killed Sebastian)? It only helped to increase my suspicions about how in control she was during the Sebastian killing and I think she was in a lot more control than she's willing to admit. Although how quickly she gave in to Oliver and the utter lack of denial spoke volumes. Frankly, I think Ollie hit the nail on the head with his accusation.

Oliver and Chloe are like two peas in a scary, vengeful pod this season. I'm at once disappointed at them, but also really intrigued on where their stories are going. This whole dark mentality of theirs can't end well for either of them.

[nede]

NO...this whole episode Ollie has been manipulating or convincing chloe into things....u could see it on chloe's face....she's still confused.....

she knows it wasnt completely brainiac but she doesnt know it was completely her either...he was still in her.....not that he was completely controlling her but it was more of a influencial part on him...if tat makes any sense..

i bet she doesnt even know...she's prolly run it through her head a million times..

[Storm45]

Is it me or there are too many murderers starring in this show?

There are 4 regulars already who committed murder to date.

One of them is supposed to be Green Arrow, founder of the Justice League.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Chloe's a murderer.:eek: And she looked so sweet and innocent.

[SGuthrie27]

She was definitely still confused. I'm an ultimate Chloe fan, but I can admit that it's not 100% clear that she was completely innocent of Sebastian's death. I think a lot of what happened there was Chloe's motivations being overtaken by Brainiac's influence and power. Brainiac had no real reason to kill Sebastian -- Chloe would've wanted him silenced (though not by killing him). The two pieces working together is what led to Sebastian's death. So, I don't think Chloe is completely guilty, but perhaps not entirely innocent either, and her reactions show it (even if she was being horrendously emotionally manipulated and blackmailed by Oliver). I still back her up 100%. You try getting infected and slowly taken over by a malevolent alien supercomputer and see if you don't end up doing a few villainous things along the way!

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[MsSullivan]

She didn't, but she feels guilty for everything that happened while under Brainiac's control (even future spoilers suggest).

Even when talking with Sebastian you could clearly tell she wasn't her self, computer-talk and non-blinking. It was only after she left his room that she started blinking and realizing what had happened. Its another Lana killing Genevieve situation while being possessed.

[MAN-of-STEEL]

Chloe totally whacked sebastian. Think about it, why would Brainiac care if Sebastian knew Clark's secret? What harm would that cause him? Nothing.

[AndiGirl]

Yea...It looks like Chloe killed him. :(
Which I still dont understand....

It looks like she may have to start sidekicking for Ollie, since the writers are making them share the same principles. :\

[nede]

thats just it..it wasnt all him it was a part of him..nd he wouldnt care...it was chloe who cared and that got a intertwined or mixed with brainiac's evilness...nd thats what the outcome came to be..

its not just cuz ima chloe fan that im defending her its also that she was getting a lot of crap from two guys in her life...one clark giving her that speech nd bringing her back from ........2) ollies manipulating ways nd blackmailing her and convincing her to side with him on wat he did was right...

she was like a poor deer caught in the headlights

[miks]

Chloe was confused. She's doubting herself thanks to asshat Ollie. She feels guilty for what happened and some part of her is wondering if she had any control over it or not.

[Veilleuse]

Chloe totally whacked sebastian. Think about it, why would Brainiac care if Sebastian knew Clark's secret? What harm would that cause him? Nothing.It's the clincher, isn't it? Brainiac really wouldn't have any interest at all in protecting Clark or his secret. Nor would he have had any interest in saving Oliver's life in "Toxic". If I'm willing to admit Chloe was at least partially (even mostly) in control while using the Brainiac-abilities in "Toxic", I tend to think she probably was at least partially in control when Sebastian was killed. People don't have a problem with thinking Chloe was in control of the Brainiac-abilities when she's doing something good, something to save her friend (who Brainiac wouldn't give a crap about), but when she's doing something bad to protect another (again, someone Brainiac wouldn't give a crap about), then suddenly it becomes all Brainiac's fault. That just doesn't fly to me, it's too much of a double standard.

[TWNik]

I'm still not entirely convinced.

Call me blind to any or all of Chloe's faults, but Oliver's accusation doesn't amount to corroborating evidence in my book. The credibility is shaky at best, especially after what he did tonight of his own free will.

Oliver was trying to justify his own actions, but if this is some lame attempt by the writers to retcon Chloe as Evil, it's offensive to longtime viewers Chloe as a character, her fans. She was shown to be controlled by Brainiac.

Chloe Sullivan is a Heroine in her own right. She's even sacrificed her own life to save EDLois, & Clark.

The character & her fans deserve some respect for the 8 years she's been crapped on with some payoff.

[davidbrenton]

YES! I did this whole Chloe Character Analysis thread back when Prey aired, or whatever the episode she killed him was. I am very pleased because it (The season so far) did prove out to be a very good character analysis and uncovered the lengths to which Chloe is BLINDED by her love for Clark/"world".

When empowered, she will choose a darker road to "victory". It didn't "trash" Chloe's character in my mind, instead, it peeled down the layers to reveal the true Chloe a little bit more.

Again, with Doomsday, I think we will same the same behavioral flaw. It's likely her fatal flaw.

Also, Chloe's "midwipe" was BRILLIANT from a character analysis perspective because it contrasted the "secret knowing Chloe" with the "non-secret knowing Chloe". One is PURELY INNOCENT, the Chloe many people still confuse the current chloe with now. But, this short arc, clearly highlighted that the "Secret knowing Chloe" was more self assured, more self aware, more empowered, and yes, because of that, darker, because she knew herself enough to know the lengths she would go to do "the right thing".

I loved this season and Chloe's participation in it.

[nede]

oliver was trying to justify his own actions, but if this is some lame attempt by the writers to retcon chloe as evil, it's offensive to longtime viewers chloe as a character, her fans. She was shown to be controlled by brainiac.

Chloe sullivan is a heroine in her own right. She's even sacrificed her own life to save edlois, & clark.

The character & her fans deserve some respect for the 8 years she's been crapped on with some payoff.


thank you!

[nic25]

Allison is such a great actress, she actually made me pity Chloe with her sad attempt at blaming her BrainIAC infection on the murder. "It wasn't me, it was BrainIAC." *head down, innocent look, feign weakness*

Thankfully, Oliver is smarter than that. Secret for secret, Chloe keeps his secret of murdering Lex, while he keeps her secret of murdering Sebastian. So dark, I love it, Smallville!!

These two are going to need some redemption. They really have gone pretty far into the deep end and I wonder who's going to have to pull them back :rolleyes:

So, all that's left for Chloe to do is own up to it. The fact that she was even aware that she killed Sebastian but still kept it a secret makes her responsible. Now she just needs to stop lying to herself.

I have to agree with you.This going to be tough for her.How is she going to come back from this.Something just seems really off with her.Could this maybe be why she clings to Davis/Dommesday!?! She probably feels like she can connect with him....I wonder :confused:

[Cogito17]

I am very curious to see where they go with this. Is this the first time they have had one of the "good guys" actually kill someone? I don't think Ollie truly killed Lex (would create problems for the telling of Superman in the future). And, also, how will Clark react if he finds out?

[morena]

Chloe was confused. She's doubting herself thanks to asshat Ollie. She feels guilty for what happened and some part of her is wondering if she had any control over it or not.

I agree.

I think the reason why Oliver questioned Chloe was he saw Chloe use her Brainiac ability in Bloodline, and think maybe she did it again.
he played on Chloe fears that she might have really killed Sebastain. I think Chloe unsure of herself, what happened to her during the Brainaic arc.


Now I think perhaps the Chloe's epiphany is on this?

[TWNik]

I am very curious to see where they go with this. Is this the first time they have had one of the "good guys" actually kill someone? I don't think Ollie truly killed Lex (would create problems for the telling of Superman in the future). And, also, how will Clark react if he finds out?


Let's not ignore the fact Clark was willing to kill Lex tonight, because he was keeping him from Lana. Green Arrow is supposed to be a good guy & he's killed. Lana has killed.

Chloe Sullivan is a Heroine, & her character deserves some respect, not crapped on trying to say she's suddenly evil. It was shown onscreen to be Brainiac.

[dru-zod2501]

y'know, after thinking, it seems I may have misspoken.

whenever people start discussing this topic I get defensive when people start exclaiming that Chloe did it entirely on her own because she wanted to. I think that's ridiculous.

I didn't mean that Chloe was entirely blameless in the matter, just that she wasn't in complete control of herself, that Brainiac coerced her & diminished her capacity to resist. Chloe did it, but Brainiac made her do it.

[davidbrenton]

Let's not ignore the fact Clark was willing to kill Lex tonight, because he was keeping him from Lana. Green Arrow is supposed to be a good guy & he's killed. Lana has killed.

Chloe Sullivan is a Heroine, & her character deserves some respect, not crapped on trying to say she's suddenly evil. It was shown onscreen to be Brainiac.

It's not evil to have a deeper root. We are getting to the root of Chloe. EVERY human is capable of murder. We uncovering the circumstances and extent to which that is true for Chloe and learning HOW SHE DEALS with it.

That is incredible character development.

[Veilleuse]

It didn't "trash" Chloe's character in my mind, instead, it peeled down the layers to reveal the true Chloe a little bit more.

....Also, Chloe's "midwipe" was BRILLIANT from a character analysis perspective because it contrasted the "secret knowing Chloe" with the "non-secret knowing Chloe". One is PURELY INNOCENT, the Chloe many people still confuse the current chloe with now. But, this short arc, clearly highlighted that the "Secret knowing Chloe" was more self assured, more self aware, more empowered, and yes, because of that, darker, because she knew herself enough to know the lengths she would go to do "the right thing".

I loved this season and Chloe's participation in it.Decided to quote this all to say a big fat WORD. I've been loving Chloe's arc this season too (although sometimes I feel like I'm about to get shot for admitting as much), I think it's been one of her best in a long time TBH.

[TWNik]

It's not evil to have a deeper root. We are getting to the root of Chloe. EVERY human is capable of murder. We uncovering the circumstances and extent to which that is true for Chloe and learning HOW SHE DEALS with it.

That is incredible character development.

No. That's called completely Out of Character & inconsistant with her core/root shown for the past 8 years.

Developement is something that happens over time & is consistant with "growth" for a character. You do not take a Heroine & let's not forget she was under the influence of Brainiac, & suddenly say she's turned evil. That's crap.

[davidbrenton]

No. That's called completely Out of Character & inconsistant with her core/root shown for the past 8 years.

Developement is something that happens over time & is consistant with "growth" for a character. You do not take a Heroine & let's not forget she was under the influence of Brainiac, & suddenly say she's turned evil. That's crap.

I think you are confusing "evil" with human. "Evil" and "human" and "good" are not black and white. She is and always has been blinded by her love of Clark, and we are understanding the depths to which that can take her over.

It's entirely in character, and the last 8 years of "Clark" worship has proven it. That's development. That's peeling the layers. That's growth from a character analysis perspective.

We, as the audience, are understanding the core of Chloe better and more clearly. It's not as "pretty" as the "innocent", doe eyed version was....but it's just as real and true to form.

[unfocused]

She wasn't under the influence of BrainIAC. This episode proves that. And no one is saying Chloe is evil. She isn't.

[cksmallvillelex]

Yeah, Chloe killed the guy. The whole point of Oliver telling her he has proof of that murder was so that she will let him get away with his own murder.

I'll give some friendly advice and suggest you prepare yourself for it. This scene was a set up for a future scene that will reveal the truth clearly for you.




Of course Chloe killed Sebastian with her own free will. She used the same typical excuse/ reason "I was doing it to protect Clark -or- I wasn't myself."

I think your right about this scence setting up a future scene. I'm still not sure if Lex is really dead. I mean to send Lex off with that kind of end... it just doens't seen Smallville Like.

[WildGoatTamer]

Yeah the entire episode AM gave off the vibe that Chloe did kill Sebastien. I don't really mind, Chloe was defending Clark with slight influence from Brainiac (Hey his eyes didn't go all freaky for no reason). I still love Chloe and she probably will kill again for Clark because she cares about him so much. :/

[davidbrenton]

Of course Chloe killed Sebastian with her own free will. She used the same typical excuse/ reason "I was doing it to protect Clark -or- I wasn't myself."



EXACTLY! AM performed that beautifully. The character of Chloe so instinctively to the "self protecting" excuse of "That wasn't me" to deny a part of herself she was not quite willing to face. She perhaps ALLOWED herself to kill him BECAUSE she had the EXCUSE of brainiac. But, using that as an excuse and it actually being a reason are two entirely different things.

[unfocused]

It's entirely in character, and the last 8 years of "Clark" worship has proven it. That's development. That's peeling the layers. That's growth from a character analysis perspective.

Completely agree. I've actually used this argument before. It was in character, her loyalty to Clark, and her love for him has been shown to be incredibly strong. So it's absolutely NOT out of character for her to go so far as to murder a powerful, evil man to protect Clark. She knows how much Clark means to herself, but she also knows how much Clark means to the world.

And because of the fact that she helped Oliver and sided with him to kill Lex TO PROTECT CLARK, just proves the lengths she would go to for Clark.

[davidbrenton]

Completely agree. I've actually used this argument before. It was in character, her loyalty to Clark, and her love for him has been shown to be incredibly strong. So it's absolutely NOT out of character for her to go so far as to murder a powerful, evil man to protect Clark. She knows how much Clark means to herself, but she also knows how much Clark means to the world.

And because of the fact that she helped Oliver and sided with him to kill Lex TO PROTECT CLARK, just proves the lengths she would go to for Clark.

Yup yup yup.

[DigitalKing]

OOCville, according to Wrath and Plastique at least.

I typed up a long spiel about how Sebastian outing Clark would have made Brainiac's plans in Abyss kinda FUBARed but it got eaten by the board. Short version: a Clark that's being studied by the government can't provide a plausible excuse to the giant igloo for Chloe--and thus Brainiac--to be there.

[TWNik]

I think you are confusing "evil" with human. "Evil" and "human" and "good" are not black and white. She is and always has been blinded by her love of Clark, and we are understanding the depths to which that can take her over.

It's entirely in character, and the last 8 years of "Clark" worship has proven it. That's development. That's peeling the layers. That's growth from a character analysis perspective.

We, as the audience, are understanding the core of Chloe better and more clearly. It's not as "pretty" as the "innocent", doe eyed version was....but it's just as real and true to form.


She's never worshipped Clark, & the fact is proven by all the times she's called him out on his Lana worship, & they have fought over the fact she kept a secret for Lana.

I'm not sure why you are trying to promote some Chloe is evil agenda, because onscreen over 8 years, that is simply not true. Her "human" was being jealous over Lana/Clark, way back in Season 3, & then she paid for it. Her human is sacrificing herself, her needs for everyone else.

Chloe Sullivan is a heroine - 8 years of her characterization established it. Not some lame attempt of one scene in which we KNOW she was influenced by Brainiac. :rolleyes:


Chloe is this show's Heroine

[unfocused]

Lana was looking more like a heroine tonight... Chloe was looking like a killer. She was also looking like someone who was working for Oliver, the killer.

Evil? No. Misguided? Apparently.

[xrayvision]

I still say that Lex was Oliver in this episode and that he killed his former body. I also think he is trying to corrupt Chloe now and will be snooping around since nobody suspects him.

[superspider02]

i thought it was pretty clear in identity that chloe/brainiac did kill kane and did it to protect clark.

[unfocused]

I still say that Lex was Oliver in this episode and that he killed his former body. I also think he is trying to corrupt Chloe now and will be snooping around since nobody suspects him.
That's a very interesting theory. And it wouldn't be the first time the PTB lead us to believe something that was a total lie. Who knew Bizarro returned and replaced Clark last season? I mean that was one helluva surprise.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


i thought it was pretty clear in identity that chloe/brainiac did kill kane and did it to protect clark.

But BrainIAC wouldn't kill a man to protect Clark. Only Chloe would/did.

[davidbrenton]

She's never worshipped Clark, & the fact is proven by all the times she's called him out on his Lana worship, & they have fought over the fact she kept a secret for Lana.



Chloe is this show's Heroine

Yes, and did in fact jealousy drive that response from Chloe? This is something to look into, I think.

[xrayvision]

That's a very interesting theory. And it wouldn't be the first time the PTB lead us to believe something that was a total lie. Who knew Bizarro returned and replaced Clark last season? I mean that was one helluva surprise.

I actually knew that it was Bizarro when the episode started and how he just dismissed looking for Kara.

I made a seperate thread for the theory. It would be the perfect way for Lex to get around and do his dirty work without anyone suspecting him. He could get all the scoops on Clark & company and stay close to Tess.

[Watching Smallville]

I didn't mean that Chloe was entirely blameless in the matter, just that she wasn't in complete control of herself, that Brainiac coerced her & diminished her capacity to resist. Chloe did it, but Brainiac made her do it.

I think the Brainiac infection intensified Chloe's nature -- made her super smart, made her super protective of Clark. W out the infection, I don't think she would have done the same thing. But it's obvious she feels conflicted about it.

[Shadowlord367]

I don't see why this is such a big deal.

Well, I mean, I do, it's murder, but murder on Smallville.

How many people has Lana killed? Genevieve, pitchfork dude, her own clone...

Why is Chloe murdering someone so shockingly different than Lana?

[Watching Smallville]

Because it wasn't accidental. It was premeditated.

[xrayvision]

I think the Brainiac infection intensified Chloe's nature -- made her super smart, made her super protective of Clark. W out the infection, I don't think she would have done the same thing. But it's obvious she feels conflicted about it.

There were posts here saying that it made her be like a machine---100% logic and no ethics. Though, that's not how she was like. We saw her having morals most of the time. If it was like a Jekyll/Hyde type deal where one personality had control all the time, then Chloe without any influence from Brainiac killed Sebastian. But if Brainiac's possession of her was such that he could affect her personality so that even when she wasn't in Brainiac mode his influence was still there, then the "logic" theory could explain it.

[Darren5000]

They should seriously nominate Allison Mack for an award. I really like her on the show.;)

[Mr.Magic]

Is it me or there are too many murderers starring in this show?

There are 4 regulars already who committed murder to date.

One of them is supposed to be Green Arrow, founder of the Justice League.

I think you misscounted.

Clark, Chloe, Lois, Oliver, Doomsday and Tess have all killed on screen. Lois & Clark killed in Gone*, the rest of the regulars had their turn this season.

*Clark killed a second time during season 6. Wes was his name, afair. I forgot to mention Knox, even though he got better.

[Loisdragon]

I always said be scare of the quiet ones

[drew24]

Excuses, excuses.... she acted on her own it was all Chloe. If it was up to brainiac he would have let that guy live and expose Clark Kent.

[topping82]

I think the Brainiac infection intensified Chloe's nature -- made her super smart, made her super protective of Clark. W out the infection, I don't think she would have done the same thing. But it's obvious she feels conflicted about it.

Agreed.

[AgentChaos]

Excuses, excuses.... she acted on her own it was all Chloe. If it was up to brainiac he would have let that guy live and expose Clark Kent.

Clark being exposed would have ruined Brainiac's plans to get control of the FOS. It offed a "lowly human" to keep its plan in place.

[unfocused]

I don't buy that.

[davidbrenton]

You guys, Chloe stated her ulterior motive in THIS EPISODE. After Clark explained Oliver's vendetta against Lex and explained his reasons for lying he questioned Chloe's. She stated, "BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO LOSE YOU, CLARK." It wasn't, because "the WORLD can't lose you, it was because I DON"T WANT TO LOSE YOU". This is not peaches and cream, perfect girl, this is a good, susceptible human. She has strong feelings and hope in Clark and she will not lose that for anyone.

This is exactly what drove her, yes, to murder. She is cut throat when it comes to protecting clark, and keeping him in her life, she has proven that season after season. I don't understand where the big leap is...

It doesn't make her evil, it simply illustrates she is vulnerable and susceptive to "amoral" things because it's for "the greater"/Clark's good. She does not have 'AS STRONG' a moral core as Superman will prove, but both characters will learn from each other and grow because of it. However, Chloe's devotion may become a fatal flaw. I don't understand how this can be disproven given the 7+ year history of the character.

[harryandginnyfanatic]

In fairness to Chloe, Wilson was going to out Clark.

Although, she could've handled it more delicately.

[unfocused]

I agree. Being fair, she did do it for Clark.

[chloesmygirl]

So my question is will Clark find out she killed that guy?

[ginnyfan]

I think that Brainiac killed Sebastian, but Chloe is relieved that Oliver killed Lex.

Or rather... Chloe wouldn't have killed Sebastian if she weren't infected with Brainiac.

[Atomic girl]

Chloe can't prove that Brainiac had control of her, it was pointless to say anything beyond what she did. Oliver was trying to justify his actions. He never mentioned this before, only when it served his purpose. Brainiac needed Clark to do certain things for him, so it makes sense to "protect" him for his purpose. We know Brainiac would never do it for the sole purpose of helping Clark.

There's a lot of stuff that still needs to be sorted out about Chloe being controlled by Brainiac. Unfortunately, with the writing, we'll probably be left to debate this forever, because we'll never get a clear answer. Only clues that can be taken either way....

[Kevin24]

I believe that Brainiac influenced her in some shape or form because Chloe would never have done anything like that if she wasn't corrupted. She knew what she was doing and she saw herself doing what she did but her mind was in a fog/haze because of what Brainiac was doing.

She was conscience during it but I believe that Brainiac somehow justified it in her mind that it was ok to kill him for Clark.

[SupesComicFan]

I think she killed him. I think "protecting Clark" as an excuse will be one of the reasons he is pushing into the Clark/Superman dual identity. If he makes Superman a different person, one that seems invincible, people won't have to go and 'protect Clark' anymore. He is learning what knowing his secret does to people, and he will play it a little closer to the vest from now on.

I am not saying Chloe is evil. However, protecting Clark is COMPLETELY IN CHARACTER for Chloe, and killing to protect the secret is where knowing the secret takes you. Unless you are Lois, which Chloe is not.

[luthorian]

How can she remember it if it was just Brainiac? I think it was Chloe using Brainiac's powers. But I do agree with what someone said about her not doing it if Brainiac was not in her head. So I think it's both her and Brainiac's influence.

[unfocused]

I agree that the murder serves a purpose for the dual identity. It actually makes the most sense. When Clark finds out that Chloe murdered a man in cold blood to protect his secret, he will realize that his secret is dangerous on more levels than he knows.

He can't allow people to kill in his name. This season is all about dual identities and especially Clark's Superman persona. His secret plays a major role in this and he needs to be careful with who he let's in on it.

Looking at it like this, it makes so much sense now and it answers many of my questions.

[harryandginnyfanatic]

I'm sure she meant it in the nicest way.

[Kal El 12]

So my question is will Clark find out she killed that guy?

Hope not.... Cause than it will be another long boring clark speech about chloe... how could you kill someone and not tell me..... As the clark kent hypocracy continues...

[Hopefulsuicide]

I think the writers did a great job of bringing it up, and giving us enough so that we can argue about it but still not know for sure :lol:

Personally it felt to me like Chloe wasn't too sure herself how much control she had when she did that... i think she doubted that it was all Brainiac and that's why she didn't say it with such conviction.

[devilneedsaride]

It isn't quite clear yet exactly what happened. All we've got are implications upon implications. While the Chloe fan in me wants to beat my arms and legs against the floor and wail that it was Brainiac, I think it makes sense to take a step back and break down what we know.


In the Chloe-Did-It Camp:
1. Sebastian was going to out Clark. Chloe wants to protect Clark and she's pretty zealous about this.
2. When Oliver brought it up, she blamed Brainiac and acted guilty.
3. Nobody I've seen has thought of a reason why Brainiac would want to kill Sebastian.


In the Brainiac-Did-It Camp:
1. Brainiac was inhabiting Chloe at the time and we know that he was affecting her mind in some pretty big ways.
2. Cold-blooded murder is dramatically OOC from what we know of Chloe. This act was very much a lightswitch kind of thing instead of a slow progression into moral ambiguity. There was no lead-in and there was very little follow-up, which means this was either bizarre writing or something else was going on.
2a. Chloe's expression during that scene was downright cold. I know this is subjective, but the way she was acting while she killed him throws me more than almost anything else. She was not at all acting like somebody who had any doubts about what she was doing, which makes this whole thing all the more OOC.


In the Neither-Here-Nor-There Camp:
1. Chloe's expression as she left the hospital room looked pretty freaked out. This could either be interpreted as "Oh my god I've never killed anyone before, this is huge and scary." or "What just happened? What am I doing? Did I KILL that guy?" Nobody seems to be able to agree on this one.


At this point I think it could go either way. I think Chloe could have been acting guilty because she blames herself for anything Brainiac did in her body, or she could have been influenced by Brainiac and not been completely aware of it. She could also have done it on her own because she loves Clark and doesn't want to lose him or see him get hurt.

Personally, I think it's just too OOC and lightswitchy for it to have been Chloe alone. My current theory is that Chloe was being influenced, but not controlled, by Brainiac at the time. The question is then: Why would Brainiac want to inhibit Chloe's morals? Possibly to drive a wedge between her and Clark. Chloe is an asset to Clark in his evil-stopping ways, and a secret cold-blooded murder would be a great way to drive a wedge into their as-of-yet unbreakable friendship. Leaving enough of Chloe intact so that her motivations were what drove the murder would ensure that even she doesn't know whether it was her fault, increasing the turmoil and further confusing the situtation and distracting/weakening Clark. This is all just a theory though, there's no proof to back it up and who knows how much of this is my inner "Waaah! Chloe's not a murderer! I love her! Waaaah!" factor. In any case, I don't think we know the unequivocal truth yet.

[Wicked Lois]

I really didnt think Brainiac had a strong influence on Chloe's decisions.... as in marrying Jimmy and killing Sebastian. That was good they had it clear.

She did to protect Clark. It was kinda cruel, but he was going after his best friend. She killed the man, and that's it.

[unfocused]

That's how I saw it to. And that's how Oliver saw it. And the fact that Chloe, a very opinionated, not easily manipulated, and extremely loyal friend, didn't fight Oliver on the issue, proves she knew he, and us, are right.

By the way, it's not too OOC anymore. I've accepted the OOC claim up until Requiem, but not anymore, because this episode tells me so much about who Chloe really is. Chloe believes in murder "for the greater good." Murder is no longer OOC for her, even in cold blood. It's still MURDER, any which way you look at it and she still agrees with it.

[Wicked Lois]

Maybe she should stands with Oliver.

[Estro-gen X]

When Chloe killed sebastian she wasn't as cold as brainiac would have been. Brainiac also had no motive in killing sebastian for clark. In short, I think Chloe went too far for Clark because he's her best friend. She comforted herself in the belief in Brainiac but knows deep down its wasnt.

[Hopefulsuicide]

It isn't quite clear yet exactly what happened. All we've got are implications upon implications. While the Chloe fan in me wants to beat my arms and legs against the floor and wail that it was Brainiac, I think it makes sense to take a step back and break down what we know.


In the Chloe-Did-It Camp:
1. Sebastian was going to out Clark. Chloe wants to protect Clark and she's pretty zealous about this.
2. When Oliver brought it up, she blamed Brainiac and acted guilty.
3. Nobody I've seen has thought of a reason why Brainiac would want to kill Sebastian.


In the Brainiac-Did-It Camp:
1. Brainiac was inhabiting Chloe at the time and we know that he was affecting her mind in some pretty big ways.
2. Cold-blooded murder is dramatically OOC from what we know of Chloe. This act was very much a lightswitch kind of thing instead of a slow progression into moral ambiguity. There was no lead-in and there was very little follow-up, which means this was either bizarre writing or something else was going on.
2a. Chloe's expression during that scene was downright cold. I know this is subjective, but the way she was acting while she killed him throws me more than almost anything else. She was not at all acting like somebody who had any doubts about what she was doing, which makes this whole thing all the more OOC.


In the Neither-Here-Nor-There Camp:
1. Chloe's expression as she left the hospital room looked pretty freaked out. This could either be interpreted as "Oh my god I've never killed anyone before, this is huge and scary." or "What just happened? What am I doing? Did I KILL that guy?" Nobody seems to be able to agree on this one.


At this point I think it could go either way. I think Chloe could have been acting guilty because she blames herself for anything Brainiac did in her body, or she could have been influenced by Brainiac and not been completely aware of it. She could also have done it on her own because she loves Clark and doesn't want to lose him or see him get hurt.

Personally, I think it's just too OOC and lightswitchy for it to have been Chloe alone. My current theory is that Chloe was being influenced, but not controlled, by Brainiac at the time. The question is then: Why would Brainiac want to inhibit Chloe's morals? Possibly to drive a wedge between her and Clark. Chloe is an asset to Clark in his evil-stopping ways, and a secret cold-blooded murder would be a great way to drive a wedge into their as-of-yet unbreakable friendship. Leaving enough of Chloe intact so that her motivations were what drove the murder would ensure that even she doesn't know whether it was her fault, increasing the turmoil and further confusing the situtation and distracting/weakening Clark. This is all just a theory though, there's no proof to back it up and who knows how much of this is my inner "Waaah! Chloe's not a murderer! I love her! Waaaah!" factor. In any case, I don't think we know the unequivocal truth yet.


:lol: great breakdown

i agree with you completey. there is a lot of evidence on both sides and since we still only have an interpretable answer, we can't really say for sure

if Chloe did do it then i will accept that she has simply become a lot more morally ambiguous... but to KILL a man! In cold blood... well it seems like a huge extreme

i don't personally think that Brainiac would have had to have had a conscious reason to affect Chloe's morals. simply having her brain be a bit computer like, and a bit less human would have affected her decisions in a less moral way

[Var-Zol]

Ok folks, to put this to rest once and for all, Chloe was worried about sebastian knowing the secret, Brainiac, sensing this, overrode her and killed sebastian so that he couldnt mess with his chances of fighting and defeating the Kryptonian himself. Kinda like how Lex wants to be the only one to kill Superman, The Joker wants to be the only one to kill Batman etc.

[devilneedsaride]

RE: the OOCness of it all, we've known Chloe to zealously protect Clark and his secret, and we've known Chloe to theoretically be willing to consider killing somebody for the greater good. I still think it's a huge, huge leap to go from that to actually murdering a guy in cold blood.

There is a large gap between being willing to lie to your fiance and cover up for Clark when he suddenly has to disappear into the wild blue yonder for no apparent reason, and seeking out and murdering some guy you think might know Clark's secret. There's also a pretty big gap between "Lex is possessed by Zod/committing mass murder on a daily basis/writing the screenplay to Glitter II, Clark, maybe you should actually consider killing him to save the planet" which is just talk and theory, and, again, actively seeking out some guy and killing him. I just don't buy it. Not without more of a Chloe-going-down-the-wrong-path kind of lead-in like we had with Oliver, and not in such a calm, vicious way. Besides, how many other meteor freaks have found out Clark's secret before, and it's never crossed anybody's mind to kill them until Chloe's possessed by Brainiac? Too coincidental.

[unfocused]

When Chloe killed sebastian she wasn't as cold as brainiac would have been. Brainiac also had no motive in killing sebastian for clark. In short, I think Chloe went too far for Clark because he's her best friend. She comforted herself in the belief in Brainiac but knows deep down its wasnt.

You're right. If BrainIAC was indeed influencing or controlling Chloe, we would have seen it in her. But we didn't, all we saw was a serious, intent Chloe. It was all Chloe.

Also, it's true that she did put comfort in the idea that she may have been affected by BrainIAC. That's why her line "it wasn't me, it was BrainIAC" was meant to come off that fake. Because she knew it wasn't true, it was only something to hide behind in denial.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

Also, "cold blood" is being kind of misused around here. Chloe did not axe a guys head off now. She merely touched him. It was a cold blooded murder, but it was not grotesque, just unnerving. When she walked out of the room, we clearly see her unnerved expression. BrainIAC would not have been unnerved. The fact that she shows us this expression tells us that it was all Chloe.

[devilneedsaride]

You're right. If BrainIAC was indeed influencing or controlling Chloe, we would have seen it in her. But we didn't, all we saw was a serious, intent Chloe. It was all Chloe.

Also, it's true that she did put comfort in the idea that she may have been affected by BrainIAC. That's why her line "it wasn't me, it was BrainIAC" was meant to come off that fake. Because she knew it wasn't true, it was only something to hide behind in denial.

Also, "cold blood" is being kind of misused around here. Chloe did not axe a guys head off now. She merely touched him. It was a cold blooded murder, but it was not grotesque, just unnerving. When she walked out of the room, we clearly see her unnerved expression. BrainIAC would not have been unnerved. The fact that she shows us this expression tells us that it was all Chloe.

This stuff is all subjective. You saw serious, intent Chloe, while I saw cold-blooded viciousness that seemed completely OOC. And like I said, her expression after she left the room could be interpreted in multiple ways. We have seen no definitive truth, just implications upon implications. You can't absolutely say that it was Chloe just like I can't absolutely say that it was Brainiac, it hasn't been completely laid out for us yet.

[Dominicus]

What I don't get, unless I missed something was how did Chloe find out about Sebastian in the first place.

Anyway, she was under some influence, but not entirely. Rather, Chloe influenced Brainiac because he had no reason to keep Clark's secret. Brainiac told Lex, Clark's secret as, Kara without restraint, upon hearing Sebastian's answer what he would do with the information, I believe that's when Chloe allowed Brainiac to kill. The demeanor was brainiac, but the motive was all Chloe. Either way, Chloe was also responcible, it was a two-entity kill, and her expression of guilt indicated some culpability.

[Vindellavon]

Never underestimate the blonde. Ya see what happened?!

[SGuthrie27]

LOL. Yeah, Chloe is never someone to be underestimated. She'll always surprise you. But in this case, I still have to say that it was NOT ALL Chloe alone. It just wasn't; it didn't look like pure Chloe to me, or even just serious Chloe determined to protect Clark's secret. Listen to the tone of her voice and watch the blank expression on her face again when she says, "Here. Let me show you." Chloe would not have known she has the ability to wipe the guy's mind. Only Brainiac within her would no about it -- so, once again, it's a team effort, if not just Brainiac alone.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[unfocused]

Actually, Chloe knew exactly what it would do to Sebastian. Her method of murder came from an earlier scene in which she crashed her Isis computers due to overloading them. This is where she got the idea to overload Sebastian's mind with Kryptonian data.

Which is another point that tells us Chloe premeditated that murder.

[Khyla]

It's not evil to have a deeper root. We are getting to the root of Chloe. EVERY human is capable of murder. We uncovering the circumstances and extent to which that is true for Chloe and learning HOW SHE DEALS with it.

That is incredible character development.

I totally agree!

I liked that REQUIEM gave us a deeper insight into CHloe's makeup with a little help from her not-so-honorable pal, Oliver, bringing up her part in the murder of "Sebastian". It was actually refreshing to find out that CHloe is human afterall, and NOT A SAINT, a human who would protect Clark as fiercely as a mother protects her child.

[Dominicus]

You're right, Unfocused. Wasn't that also her quote when she killed Sebastian?

[hanemg]

I totally agree!

I liked that REQUIEM gave us a deeper insight into CHloe's makeup with a little help from her not-so-honorable pal, Oliver, bringing up her part in the murder of "Sebastian". It was actually refreshing to find out that CHloe is human afterall, and NOT A SAINT, a human who would protect Clark as fiercely as a mother protects her child.

So...Oliver "kills" Lex to protect not only Clark, but mankind in general and he's "not-so-honorable", yet Chloe will kill to protect Clark and "It was actually refreshing to find out that Chloe is human after all and NOT A SAINT"?!

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing the delineation between these two things. How is it that Oliver can do it and it tarnishes his character, but Chloe can do it and it's neat character development and "refreshing"?

[Dominicus]

So...Oliver "kills" Lex to protect not only Clark, but mankind in general and he's "not-so-honorable", yet Chloe will kill to protect Clark and "It was actually refreshing to find out that Chloe is human after all and NOT A SAINT"?!

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing the delineation between these two things. How is it that Oliver can do it and it tarnishes his character, but Chloe can do it and it's neat character development and "refreshing"? Agreed. I think it makes her more cold-blooded. I think they meant refreshing as in interesting plot that Chloe would have the persona of an angel, but the vindictiveness of the devil. I would hope. Well that's how I see it.

[BadToad]

Also, I can't really imagine that Clark would be thanking Chloe, or Oliver, for killing in his name. It seems to me that if he found out about this, not only would he have a tough time coming to terms with what Oliver and Chloe did, but he'd have the burden of their actions thurst upon him. Since we know that our Clark does love to take on the guilt.

I can see how this might be interesting for the characters of Chloe and Oliver, as far as showing different sides to them. But when it comes to their relationship with Clark? I think their actions could lead to serious problems. As they should, IMO

[davidbrenton]

i totally agree!

I liked that requiem gave us a deeper insight into chloe's makeup with a little help from her not-so-honorable pal, oliver, bringing up her part in the murder of "sebastian". it was actually refreshing to find out that chloe is human afterall, and not a saint, a human who would protect clark as fiercely as a mother protects her child.

wahoo!

[harryandginnyfanatic]

The guy was probably dying any way. Chloe just eased his passing.

[Kevin24]

I think that Brainiac may have had a reason to kill Sebastian to protect Clark and that reason is the Fortress of Solitude. I'm not positive but I think only Clark can re-create the fortress with the crystal and I think by that time he had already infected the crystal.

So, he may have had Chloe kill Sebastian so that Clark would still open the infected Fortress and then his plan could take place.

Just a theory...

[ginevrakent]

I totally agree!

I liked that REQUIEM gave us a deeper insight into CHloe's makeup with a little help from her not-so-honorable pal, Oliver, bringing up her part in the murder of "Sebastian". It was actually refreshing to find out that CHloe is human afterall, and NOT A SAINT, a human who would protect Clark as fiercely as a mother protects her child.

I never quite saw Chloe as a saint to begin with, as she had human flaws and weaknesses like the rest of us. However, killing someone is certainly more troubling whether it's Chloe or Oliver who does it.

I'm not sure I like the path that Chloe is on right now. It's nice to see a different side to her character, but I hope Chloe has brighter days ahead.

[SGuthrie27]

Kevin24, you rock -- I had totally forgotten about that part. Brainiac couldn't use the crystal or create the Fortress himself -- he had to manipulate Clark into doing so. He couldn't do that without slowly taking over Chloe, or without Clark having the crystal to take to the Arctic in the first place, so having Sebastian reveal his secret probably wouldn't have gone along too well with Brainiac's plans at the time.

Also, there is still NO proof that Chloe herself would've known that her powers would've had that effect on the human body. I rewatched all of her scenes from "Identity," and there's nothing that suggests she would've had any knowledge that her powers would extend to shutting down a person's brain. Sure, she overloaded the Isis computers, but she wouldn't have had a clue that she could do that to Sebastian unless Brainiac was influencing her, controlling her movements, or at least revealed to her that it was possible.

Chloe killing Sebastian is disturbing, but to me, all evidence is pointing to the fact that it was Brainiac who was more in control at the time. Listening to her voice throughout that scene, it started out sounding like typical Chloe, but it ended very much sounding like Brainiac, when she took off the glove and said her last two lines.

You can come back with more arguments to the contrary, but if so, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[Khyla]

I think that Brainiac may have had a reason to kill Sebastian to protect Clark and that reason is the Fortress of Solitude. I'm not positive but I think only Clark can re-create the fortress with the crystal and I think by that time he had already infected the crystal.

So, he may have had Chloe kill Sebastian so that Clark would still open the infected Fortress and then his plan could take place.

Just a theory...


I have to agree with Kevin24's suggestion that Brainiac did need Clark to re-create the fortress. That would not only explain why he "helped" Chloe to kill Sebastian but why he "helped" her to bring Clark back from the Phantom Zone, along with Doomsday's mommy.

Chloe did a lot of things that seemed "off" while under Brainiac's influence, and things that lacked good judgment on her part.

Hell, just her agreeing to marry Jimmy was one of them!

But I also recall her comforting Davis in one scene telling him she can't believe he could be the killer, and then immediately telling Clark that Davis has the perfect set-up to be the murderer.

(everyone commented on how that seemed very odd and out of place)

Then when they heard Jimmy's plea for help, she sent Clark out to investigate Davis' watch, with a weird smirk on her face.

The way the "FEVER letter" appeared, just falling off an open bookshelf, was also very suspect. It was almost as if Brainiac wanted to cause friction, so that Chloe would have an excuse to 'fess up to Clark, thus further drawing out his true feelings for her and assuring Brainiac of certain security and control over Clark.


---Brainiac even admitted to Davis that the feelings Davis had for CHloe
were a result of 'the program he was running in Chloe'


I just want to clarify that I do not believe Chloe was accountable for the murder of Sebastian, but that she did have a part in it:

It's obvious to me that Brainiac was not only "running his program in her" the whole time he'd infected her, but that he also appealed to her inner senses to protect Clark at all costs and manipulated her accordingly.

[unfocused]

Kevin24, you rock -- I had totally forgotten about that part. Brainiac couldn't use the crystal or create the Fortress himself -- he had to manipulate Clark into doing so. He couldn't do that without slowly taking over Chloe, or without Clark having the crystal to take to the Arctic in the first place, so having Sebastian reveal his secret probably wouldn't have gone along too well with Brainiac's plans at the time.

Also, there is still NO proof that Chloe herself would've known that her powers would've had that effect on the human body. I rewatched all of her scenes from "Identity," and there's nothing that suggests she would've had any knowledge that her powers would extend to shutting down a person's brain. Sure, she overloaded the Isis computers, but she wouldn't have had a clue that she could do that to Sebastian unless Brainiac was influencing her, controlling her movements, or at least revealed to her that it was possible.

Chloe killing Sebastian is disturbing, but to me, all evidence is pointing to the fact that it was Brainiac who was more in control at the time. Listening to her voice throughout that scene, it started out sounding like typical Chloe, but it ended very much sounding like Brainiac, when she took off the glove and said her last two lines.

You can come back with more arguments to the contrary, but if so, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--
Well, Chloe knew Sebastian could take in information with touch. And Chloe knew she had more information than any human that has ever touched Sebastian. Chloe also knew, stated by herself, that a human mind could only take so much information before it overloads and crashes.

So yeah, I think Chloe knew ;)

[SnowBird]

Well, Chloe knew Sebastian could take in information with touch. And Chloe knew she had more information than any human that has ever touched Sebastian. Chloe also knew, stated by herself, that a human mind could only take so much information before it overloads and crashes.

So yeah, I think Chloe knew ;)

I think she knew what she was doing as well. Knowing what Chloe does in a future episode, I'm wondering if she is going to come back from the dark path she is on. Chloe has proven in the past that she is capable of underhanded tactics but committing murder was a surprise for me, and then finding out she knew she had killed a man and then covering it up. It seems that now that she is back to her old self, she would have turned herself into the police...Clark not having Jor-El return Chloe's memories of his secret seems pretty tame to Chloe being a murderer. Each did what they thought would be best for their friend. Chloe has her memory back of Clark but that man will be dead forever. I can't blame Chloe's fans for not liking this story-line they have chosen for her. The Devil (Brainiac) made me do it is a weak excuse with the new information we have. I believe the story-line of the murders that Chloe and Ollie have committed is not over yet. This could come back in the future and be bad news for both of them. Clark finding out what they did to protect him is a possibility. Killing people doesn't come without a price.

[DigitalKing]

Kevin24, I had posted a similar theory earlier. I agree. Brainiac still needed Clark for his plan to infect the Fortress, and thus he protected Clark's secret by killing Wilson. The main thing that Chloe's little speech reminded me of was Milton Fine's first(?) class on Smallville when he talks about the power of the human brain. I also was reminded of his declaration to Bizarro in Persona that he was "the Brain Interactive Construct" and how formidable he was no matter what the case. I don't think that was unintentional.

Also, Brainiac could have been stronger due to the events of Committed, since we know he gets energized by electricity. This would have enabled him to make more powerful moves afterward, and indeed much of the friction between Chlark heightened after Committed.

[unfocused]

"The devil made me do it" is indeed the most tired excuse to be used and is looked upon as an automatic lie, so I'm not surprised Chloe used it, since she was lying. I believe she was written to say that because it was, in fact, a lie and is supposed to be interpreted that way.

I am upset with Clark for not revealing to Chloe his memory wipe decision. I think he really should have at the end of Legion. But that is nothing compared to murder. People complain about freedom of choice for Chloe, but what about freedom of life for Sebastian and Lex?

Anyway, BrainIAC wanting Sebastian dead so Clark could rebuild the Fortress or so BrainIAC can kill Clark himself are not good reasons he'd influence Chloe at all. First of all, that excuse was made up out of thin air and has absolutely no foundation of truth or evidence. Second of all, people say it's OOC for Chloe to commit murder (even though she believes in murder for the greater good!), but actually, it's OOC for BrainIAC to even influence Chloe in any decision or action she makes. Because he never influenced her decisions or actions prior to the murder, and he did not influence any of her decisions or actions following the murder.

As for BrainIAC's program that made Davis have feelings for Chloe, well BrainAIC worked for Zod when Doomsday was created. There are many ways he could have programmed Davis to be attracted, magnetized so to speak, to himself (BrainIAC). If BrainIAC had the ability to control Davis (having strong feelings for Chloe) then why couldn't he program Chloe to have those strong feelings back? He couldn't, because he had no influence over Chloe's decisions or actions. If he could control Chloe that way, he wouldn't have needed to erase her memories leaving only her memories of Davis (which was his way of attracting Chloe to Davis, since he had no influence over her).

[SnowBird]

Speaking of Brainiac making choices for Chloe: Brainiac made Chloe smart like a computer but she still had her free will to make choices, and it wasn't until Brainiac took over her mind completely that he could make her do his bidding.

[Lazy Boy]

Nope, still not convince that it was all Chloe that killed Sebastian.
In the scene when Oliver confronted Chloe about it, I thought Chloe looked confused rather than guilty. For me it seems strange that she lectures Oliver about the wrongs of killing Lex and yet if she was the murder, won't she let him have his own way without any objection?

No, it remain inconclusive.

[devilneedsaride]

"The devil made me do it" is indeed the most tired excuse to be used and is looked upon as an automatic lie, so I'm not surprised Chloe used it, since she was lying. I believe she was written to say that because it was, in fact, a lie and is supposed to be interpreted that way.

I am upset with Clark for not revealing to Chloe his memory wipe decision. I think he really should have at the end of Legion. But that is nothing compared to murder. People complain about freedom of choice for Chloe, but what about freedom of life for Sebastian and Lex?

Anyway, BrainIAC wanting Sebastian dead so Clark could rebuild the Fortress or so BrainIAC can kill Clark himself are not good reasons he'd influence Chloe at all. First of all, that excuse was made up out of thin air and has absolutely no foundation of truth or evidence. Second of all, people say it's OOC for Chloe to commit murder (even though she believes in murder for the greater good!), but actually, it's OOC for BrainIAC to even influence Chloe in any decision or action she makes. Because he never influenced her decisions or actions prior to the murder, and he did not influence any of her decisions or actions following the murder.

As for BrainIAC's program that made Davis have feelings for Chloe, well BrainAIC worked for Zod when Doomsday was created. There are many ways he could have programmed Davis to be attracted, magnetized so to speak, to himself (BrainIAC). If BrainIAC had the ability to control Davis (having strong feelings for Chloe) then why couldn't he program Chloe to have those strong feelings back? He couldn't, because he had no influence over Chloe's decisions or actions. If he could control Chloe that way, he wouldn't have needed to erase her memories leaving only her memories of Davis (which was his way of attracting Chloe to Davis, since he had no influence over her).

Because it's not like he was walking around in a Chloe suit for a whole episode or anything.

You bring up an interesting point, though, about the memory wipe. They pretty much straight-up told us in Legion that Chloe's attraction to Davis was caused by Brainiac, and I believe AM also said something to that effect in an interview. Perhaps the memory wipe was to push Chloe from emotion into action, or perhaps he did it just to make her all vulnerable and needy to further draw in Davis and just generally push them closer. I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Brainiac cannot influence Chloe's decisions when we know he can:
1. Make her brain move her muscles as he pleases.
2. Set off emotional reactions in her brain.
3. Block her memories.
4. Increase her intelligence to a superhuman level.

Given this, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he could also potentially mess with the moral centers or impulse control centers of her brain.

I do agree that Chloe's "that was Brainaic" was intended to look mighty suspicious, but there's more than one possible explanation for why she would be feeling guilty. People feel guilty for things that aren't really their fault all the time.

[harryandginnyfanatic]

It seemed very impolite of Chloe to kill Sebastian without asking his permission first.

Brainiac or not, a person should never forget their manners.

[Kevin24]

It seemed very impolite of Chloe to kill Sebastian without asking his permission first.

Brainiac or not, a person should never forget their manners.
:rotfl: That is funny!

----- Added 7 Minutes later -----




Anyway, BrainIAC wanting Sebastian dead so Clark could rebuild the Fortress or so BrainIAC can kill Clark himself are not good reasons he'd influence Chloe at all. First of all, that excuse was made up out of thin air and has absolutely no foundation of truth or evidence. Second of all, people say it's OOC for Chloe to commit murder (even though she believes in murder for the greater good!), but actually, it's OOC for BrainIAC to even influence Chloe in any decision or action she makes. Because he never influenced her decisions or actions prior to the murder, and he did not influence any of her decisions or actions following the murder.



I believe he did influence her because of how she infected the crystal. Why would Chloe want to send Clark to the Phantom Zone? That is Brainiac's doing if you ask me.

[DigitalKing]

"The devil made me do it" is indeed the most tired excuse to be used and is looked upon as an automatic lie, so I'm not surprised Chloe used it, since she was lying. I believe she was written to say that because it was, in fact, a lie and is supposed to be interpreted that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Chloe was lying because she was lying?

Further, the comparison isn't even apt. Temptation is not the same as someone taking up permanent residence in your brain. She didn't say "Brainiac made me do it" she said "That was Brainiac." As in, "Brainiac didn't tell me to do anything, I was a spectator in the whole affair."


Anyway, BrainIAC wanting Sebastian dead so Clark could rebuild the Fortress or so BrainIAC can kill Clark himself are not good reasons he'd influence Chloe at all. First of all, that excuse was made up out of thin air and has absolutely no foundation of truth or evidence. Second of all, people say it's OOC for Chloe to commit murder (even though she believes in murder for the greater good!), but actually, it's OOC for BrainIAC to even influence Chloe in any decision or action she makes. Because he never influenced her decisions or actions prior to the murder, and he did not influence any of her decisions or actions following the murder. What would have happened if Clark had been outed? Brainiac's plan would have gone to waste because Clark could never have brought him to the Fortress. Brainiac needed to use Clark (as he has done recently with using Clark and Bizarro to get to Dax-Ur) so that his plan would be complete.

As for BrainIAC's program that made Davis have feelings for Chloe, well BrainAIC worked for Zod when Doomsday was created. There are many ways he could have programmed Davis to be attracted, magnetized so to speak, to himself (BrainIAC). If BrainIAC had the ability to control Davis (having strong feelings for Chloe) then why couldn't he program Chloe to have those strong feelings back? He couldn't, because he had no influence over Chloe's decisions or actions. If he could control Chloe that way, he wouldn't have needed to erase her memories leaving only her memories of Davis (which was his way of attracting Chloe to Davis, since he had no influence over her). What is there to suggest that Brainiac had a hand in the creation of Doomsday? It's laughable that you say that Brainiac wanting to protect his assets (Clark) makes no sense and is unfounded, but it's certain that Brainiac was involved in Doomsday's creation. If this were the case, then why would Doomsday's shell program respond in a manner of love/lust? Why would he program such a slow reaction into Doomsday, when he could just have Davis transform automatically with a nod?

"Oh, I know! Instead of my mere presence being enough to transform him into the destroyer, I'll make it so that if I ever happen to be possessing a human, he will become attracted to her over a period of time before having to be convinced to be Doomsday even when he sees his creator! That'll teach Clark!"

Oh, wait, I know why he'd have done that. Because it's the sort of thing he'd do.

Further, the point of messing with Chloe's memories had nothing to do with attracting Chloe to Davis, because that was going on long before she started losing her memories. He did that to get Clark to bring her to the fortress so he could infect it and incubate Doomsday.

[Khyla]

...
In the scene when Oliver confronted Chloe about it, I thought Chloe looked confused rather than guilty. For me it seems strange that she lectures Oliver about the wrongs of killing Lex and yet if she was the murder, won't she let him have his own way without any objection?
...
I agree. Chloe looked like she had just become aware of Sebastian's murder at that point, and knew it wasn't something she would do if her moral judgment was intact but she still had some self-doubt and felt guilt over it anyway.




...If BrainIAC had the ability to control Davis (having strong feelings for Chloe) then why couldn't he program Chloe to have those strong feelings back?...
He was controlling Chloe, not Davis, by making CHloe appear very attractive to Davis. and yes I believe Brainiac appealed to CHloe's sense of attraction to a hero and tweaked it a bit causing her INITIAL reaction to Davis' kiss: She kissed him back! Then she got hold of herself and felt ashamed.


but actually, it's OOC for BrainIAC to even influence Chloe in any decision or action she makes. Because he never influenced her decisions or actions prior to the murder, and he did not influence any of her decisions or actions following the murder.


What about in the episode BLOODLINE? That was CHloe who pushed Oliver across the floor into the next room?

And agreeing to marry Jimmy at such a young age definitely seemed OOC! Especially giving him a free pass when Jimmy confessed that he wasn't straight with her about his background/upbringing. There were signs galore that CHloe doesn't really know a whole hell of a lot about Jimmy as a person, and she just continued to gloss over it.

It might even be a good explanation why Gabe didn't attend the wedding and throw a wrench into Brainiac's plans! ;)




...
Further, the point of messing with Chloe's memories had nothing to do with attracting Chloe to Davis, because that was going on long before she started losing her memories. He did that to get Clark to bring her to the fortress so he could infect it and incubate Doomsday.
Absolutely! It was all Brainiac's plan and the program he was running in Chloe.

[Dominicus]

Interesting posts, but I think the end game is the same, it's the post effect that counts. if Chloe was guilt-free, she wouldn't have gone with Oliver's black mail, she would've defied the insinuation, instead of trying to put the blame half-heartedly on Brainiac, semed like something she wasn't fully convinced on herself. But it's in her reaction, she knew who Oliver was talking about as soon as the converstion turned to don't act holier-then-thou. She was not stunned or confused, but look like she was caught in a secret she tried to bury and believe she wasn't capable of it.

[Goldie]

Nix on Requiem & Power. Lana Lang no more!

[Serynarpc]

When the episode aired, I was convinced that it was brainiac. Our ray of light, questing for truth Chloe would never *kill* someone. I rallied to that idea and argued it a bit on the forums here.

However, one look at Chloe's face when she offered that weak 'it was Brainiac' has convinced me that it was Chloe. If it had been brainiac, Chloe would have researched it and have been *sick* at what her hand's delivered, no matter who was at the wheel. She would have sought Clark for counsel. At the least, she would have broken down to Oliver and admit that she 'let her body be used to kill someone' because she seems to blame herself for Brainiac's control of her.

Trying to deflect it and not focus on the murder at all shows that she feels guilt. She didn't say the person's name, dehumanizing him as though she can't say that she killed a person. She could claim she did it to protect Clark- but Belle Reeve has done a pretty good job of protecting Clark, the break outs were the exception, not the norm.

If it was his secret getting out that she feared, she could have gone straight to someone who already knew the secret who could put money behind a campaign that Sebastien was crazy- someone like say, Oliver Queen.

Murder wasn't necessary. I fear that Chloe will not face what she's done, leading her on even worst decisions to mask her past sin. I hope that Clark will discover her deed and realize that she did it to protect him- and instead of removing the memory, will counsel her like she counseled him on Titan. After all, he very nearly 'killed' a defenseless 'Lex' (I still don't buy it was Lex, but this isn't the place). Clark knows where passion leads, such as when he let his vengeance run away with him. Hopefully, he'll steer her clear.

Although it may be twisted, I'd like to see more Oliver- Chloe needling each other. They make a good team. While I'd rather they stayed to the pure white side of the angels, if Oliver needs to get his hands dirty, I'd rather Chloe protect him and cover his tracks from Tes, Doomsday and the various people pissed off at the Green Arow.

[unfocused]

I agree with everything you said, Serynarpc. Except for the "Clark very nearly 'killed' a defenseless 'Lex." Clark didn't even get near Lex. It was implied that he would have killed Lex, implied by, lol, Lana. But yeah, you made very interesting points. Chloe would have definitely gone to Clark had she really believed BrainIAC caused her to murder a man. I mean, if she knew Brainy could make her do something that serious, she would have tried finding a cure... but she did the exact opposite and tried keeping the infection/power.

[actaeon]

So, all that's left for Chloe to do is own up to it. The fact that she was even aware that she killed Sebastian but still kept it a secret makes her responsible. Now she just needs to stop lying to herself.
I thought she kind of did admit to the killing. Her "it was Brainiac" seemed kind of half-hearted to me, like she was denying it just for form's sake. I think she knows what she did. Ollie definitely knows.

I like that they've taken Chloe down a dark road a bit.

But I wouldn't call Chloe a "murderer". What she did (and what Ollie wants to do, to kill Lex) is morally questionable but I don't think it's morally indefensible. It seems to me more like "manslaughter". And just maybe, "justifiable homicide". Maybe.

Arguably, Lex must be stopped. Interesting, that in Requiem Ollie is saved in the bombing by the shelter of the table. Just the way Hitler was saved in his assassination attempt. Is there a Lex-Hitler parallel being drawn?

Are the good guys "at war" here? Do the rules of warfare apply in Smallville, or are they living in a civil society where the law can handle the threat posed by Luthors and evil meteor freaks? I think it's debatable.

If they are at war, what Chloe did is morally defensible. Just like it was morally defensible several seasons ago when Chloe killed that guy in the missile silo, struggling over a gun.

Not all killing is murder. And Sebastian is, after all, not the first man she has killed.

[Mars Investigations]

Chloe killed Sebastian because of her own motivation, but with the cold calculation and murderous drive of Brainiac.

[unfocused]

Since Chloe premeditated the murder of Sebastian, it isn't manslaughter.

[Billy Jor-El]

Yes, if Chloe went to Sebastian's room with the purpose of eliminating him as a threat to Clark, then it was premeditated murder, even if a conflicting set of circumstances in her head. I could see Chloe thinking on her own that she needs to do something to protect Clark, then the Brainiac force taking the reins at that point, whether she realized it or not.

And, hey, Brainiac didn't need to make Chloe attractive to Davis...she's that way naturally ;)

[unfocused]

Chloe killed Sebastian because of her own motivation, but with the cold calculation and murderous drive of Brainiac.

I actually really like this take on the situation. BrainIAC is indeed cold when he kills, and Chloe did want to kill Sebastian to protect Clark.

[actaeon]

Since Chloe premeditated the murder of Sebastian, it isn't manslaughter. Not necessarily. If the rules of war apply-- and I think it's arguable that they may-- then she is no more a murderer than is a soldier who lines up an enemy in his sights and pulls the trigger. Both acts are equally premeditated.

I think it has been established on this show that normal legal means are pretty much useless in Smallville and Metropolis. The cops are corrupt or inept, and the courts are powerless. The government is in fact a big, shadowy conspiracy that's bent on persecuting the good guys and advancing the cause of evil or looking the other way as evil prospers.

The good guys have operated outside the law from day one. Breaking and entering, hacking databases, stealing confidential medical files. It's the only way to get things done in a world like the one on this show.

Chloe is a killer. But she was a killer before long Sebastian-- he was her second. The first one was justified... well, didn't she also have justification in Sebastian's case? The guy was dangerous. Who was going so stop him, if she didn't? The cops, the courts? They're useless.

Plus, it is not proven that she intended to kill Sebastian. She spoke of "crashing" him like a computer. I can imagine a smart lawyer parlaying that into a reasonable enough doubt.

Chloe is a killer but she isn't a murderer until she is found guilty of murder by a jury. Now that would make an interesting court case! Precious little legal precedent there. She's using powers that no human being has ever had before. Good luck proving that she knew beforehand they would prove fatal. She's using them on a guy whose weird powers pose a threat of unknown--possibly colossal--magnitude.

If Sebastian exposed Clark, neutralizing him so that evil might triumph, how many innocents could die as a result? Is what Chloe did entirely unjustified, either legally or morally?

Undeniably, she headed down a dark path and her zeal to protect Clark is becoming more and more troubling. It presents a dicey moral question, what she did. But I maintain that it is an open question, not simply murder.

[Sports72Xtrm]

If Clark lets Chloe slide with murder than Lex has won. Chloe and even Oliver have to pay for their crimes as then they are no better than Lex. They have to serve some jail time. If Clark was all for truth and justice, he'd make the right decision and stop her and hand her over to the authorities.

And yes I don't think Braniac had anything to do with her murder.

[actaeon]

Well, if Clark turns her in and makes sure she serves jail time, then while he's at it he's going to have to turn himself in too-- and serve time for all those bank robberies he committed during the summer of Red K.

Oh, and he needs to turn his mom in too. For harboring a fugitive (himself).

[funny-girl]

Did Chloe really came in jail in the last episode? I missed the last episode, unfortunately:mad:
Did they show a new episode at all or was it a repititon of one of the old ones? Please can somebody answer!

[dru-zod2501]

Did Chloe really came in jail in the last episode? I missed the last episode, unfortunately:mad:
Did they show a new episode at all or was it a repititon of one of the old ones? Please can somebody answer!
Chloe's not in jail, though some think she should

this week was a repeat... repeats until 3/12

[Sports72Xtrm]

Well, if Clark turns her in and makes sure she serves jail time, then while he's at it he's going to have to turn himself in too-- and serve time for all those bank robberies he committed during the summer of Red K.

Oh, and he needs to turn his mom in too. For harboring a fugitive (himself).

Money is replaceable. But you can never take back a life that you took. That sin doesn't go away. There are just some lines you don't cross. Not to mention Clark has an alibi that affected his decisions. Anyone can use the bureaucracy to excuse their sins and that's how Luthors triumph and get away with things. It is a shame that Ollie and Chloe is brought down to his level. I believe that Braniac never had influence over Chloe when she killed Sebastian. Chloe knows what she did and how it was all her and if she tries to cover it up then that is even more disappointing.

[SGuthrie27]

I think that Clark turning Chloe in to the authorities would be a pretty ridiculous thing to do... especially considering that it WAS NOT ALL HER!!! Chloe would not have been ABLE to do what she DID had she not had BRAINIAC already in her SYSTEM!!! It was either a combination of Chloe's motivation to PROTECT Clark along with Brainiac's INFLUENCE, or it was BRAINIAC taking a moment of CONTROL! It didn't sound like Chloe at all -- so cold and calloused and downright evil at the end of that scene, right before she killed Sebastian. And if you really want to get into technicalities here, Lana killed somebody before, too -- she kicked one of Morgan Edge's guards right into a pitchfork, which impaled him in the chest! Granted, she didn't mean to, but the guy did die. And yes, he was a bad guy, and yes, he would've probably killed her -- just like Sebastian had tried to kill Lois and would've destroyed Clark's life or blackmailed him had he gotten the chance. I'm not saying that Chloe is totally innocent here or that Sebastian getting killed was right -- what I am saying is that it really gets me irked when people keep saying that it was TOTALLY Chloe ALONE who killed him... and now to say she should get jail time for it? Urgh. I think I need to back out of this discussion, as I don't think I'll add too much more that's actually productive (I know I'm getting too riled when I start typing so many words in all caps, lol).

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[unfocused]

Not necessarily. If the rules of war apply-- and I think it's arguable that they may-- then she is no more a murderer than is a soldier who lines up an enemy in his sights and pulls the trigger. Both acts are equally premeditated.

I think it has been established on this show that normal legal means are pretty much useless in Smallville and Metropolis. The cops are corrupt or inept, and the courts are powerless. The government is in fact a big, shadowy conspiracy that's bent on persecuting the good guys and advancing the cause of evil or looking the other way as evil prospers.

The good guys have operated outside the law from day one. Breaking and entering, hacking databases, stealing confidential medical files. It's the only way to get things done in a world like the one on this show.

Chloe is a killer. But she was a killer before long Sebastian-- he was her second. The first one was justified... well, didn't she also have justification in Sebastian's case? The guy was dangerous. Who was going so stop him, if she didn't? The cops, the courts? They're useless.

Plus, it is not proven that she intended to kill Sebastian. She spoke of "crashing" him like a computer. I can imagine a smart lawyer parlaying that into a reasonable enough doubt.

Chloe is a killer but she isn't a murderer until she is found guilty of murder by a jury. Now that would make an interesting court case! Precious little legal precedent there. She's using powers that no human being has ever had before. Good luck proving that she knew beforehand they would prove fatal. She's using them on a guy whose weird powers pose a threat of unknown--possibly colossal--magnitude.

If Sebastian exposed Clark, neutralizing him so that evil might triumph, how many innocents could die as a result? Is what Chloe did entirely unjustified, either legally or morally?

Undeniably, she headed down a dark path and her zeal to protect Clark is becoming more and more troubling. It presents a dicey moral question, what she did. But I maintain that it is an open question, not simply murder.

Wow, that's one big pile of bull, no offense ;)

First of all, why would the rules of war apply to Chloe's murder? lol. Also, Sebastian was a danger to no one from the time Chloe premeditated his murder to when she actually did murder him. It was in no way justifiable homicide, Sebastian did not deserve to die. I don't care if he was going to expose Clark's secret or Clark's grandma panties, there was no reason for Chloe to murder him. And Clark would tell you the same thing.

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----


I think that Clark turning Chloe in to the authorities would be a pretty ridiculous thing to do... especially considering that it WAS NOT ALL HER!!! Chloe would not have been ABLE to do what she DID had she not had BRAINIAC already in her SYSTEM!!! It was either a combination of Chloe's motivation to PROTECT Clark along with Brainiac's INFLUENCE, or it was BRAINIAC taking a moment of CONTROL! It didn't sound like Chloe at all -- so cold and calloused and downright evil at the end of that scene, right before she killed Sebastian. And if you really want to get into technicalities here, Lana killed somebody before, too -- she kicked one of Morgan Edge's guards right into a pitchfork, which impaled him in the chest! Granted, she didn't mean to, but the guy did die. And yes, he was a bad guy, and yes, he would've probably killed her -- just like Sebastian had tried to kill Lois and would've destroyed Clark's life or blackmailed him had he gotten the chance. I'm not saying that Chloe is totally innocent here or that Sebastian getting killed was right -- what I am saying is that it really gets me irked when people keep saying that it was TOTALLY Chloe ALONE who killed him... and now to say she should get jail time for it? Urgh. I think I need to back out of this discussion, as I don't think I'll add too much more that's actually productive (I know I'm getting too riled when I start typing so many words in all caps, lol).

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

To be honest, I don't like the idea of jail time. It would be quite a waste of time unless there was a great story written for it. If they could write one for Oliver, I'd welcome jail time for his murder. As long as all is made right in the end. But I wouldn't want to see Chloe in jail, that would be too awkward for her. But I do think she needs to pay for her murder.

Like I've been saying this entire time, even if it wasn't ALL Chloe (I do think it was), she still has an amount of responsibility for that murder. Whether it was because she knew about it and still kept it a secret, or because through the eyes of the law, it was her and not some phantom inhabiting her body that is now so conveniently dead and gone. I honestly don't know what kind of punishment anyone deserves for premeditated murder on this show. But everyone who has orchestrated another human beings death should be punished for it.

[rajman]

i think there still is something wrong with chloe

[devilneedsaride]

First of all, why would the rules of war apply to Chloe's murder? lol. Also, Sebastian was a danger to no one from the time Chloe premeditated his murder to when she actually did murder him. It was in no way justifiable homicide, Sebastian did not deserve to die. I don't care if he was going to expose Clark's secret or Clark's grandma panties, there was no reason for Chloe to murder him. And Clark would tell you the same thing.

...

Like I've been saying this entire time, even if it wasn't ALL Chloe (I do think it was), she still has an amount of responsibility for that murder. Whether it was because she knew about it and still kept it a secret, or because through the eyes of the law, it was her and not some phantom inhabiting her body that is now so conveniently dead and gone. I honestly don't know what kind of punishment anyone deserves for premeditated murder on this show. But everyone who has orchestrated another human beings death should be punished for it.

I agree with the first bit. If it was indeed Chloe who did it, it was premeditated murder and she deserves to go to jail for it. I don't care what your reasons are, you CANNOT act as though it's your right to decide who lives or dies. Nobody is infallible enough to be entrusted with that much power, which is why we have the whole convoluted legal system with all its checks and balances. Once you start deciding who lives or dies for the greater good, it's a very slippery slope to "I have to imprison those meteor freaks before they can hurt anyone." and "I have to kill the Traveler so he can't destroy the world."

I disagree with the second bit, though. If Chloe did it all on her own she needs punishment, but if she was being affected by something beyond her control you really can't blame her for her actions. If Clark had accidentally killed someone when Pete slipped him RedK in Rush, would it have been his fault? No, because somebody else took away his ability to make rational decisions.

Not bringing it to the cops after the fact is a grayer area. I think she should certainly tell Clark about it, but, assuming that it was Brainiac's fault, what would turning herself in to the cops accomplish? She'de go to jail, but Brainiac is gone. The real killer would go unpunished and unstopped, while the blameless person he chose to inhabit would rot away in jail. If Chloe didn't chose to kill Sebastian all on her own, I think she's pretty much off the hook here.

[ginnyfan]

I disagree with the second bit, though. If Chloe did it all on her own she needs punishment, but if she was being affected by something beyond her control you really can't blame her for her actions. If Clark had accidentally killed someone when Pete slipped him RedK in Rush, would it have been his fault? No, because somebody else took away his ability to make rational decisions.

Not bringing it to the cops after the fact is a grayer area. I think she should certainly tell Clark about it, but, assuming that it was Brainiac's fault, what would turning herself in to the cops accomplish? She'de go to jail, but Brainiac is gone. The real killer would go unpunished and unstopped, while the blameless person he chose to inhabit would rot away in jail. If Chloe didn't chose to kill Sebastian all on her own, I think she's pretty much off the hook here.

Great post. I agree.

[CarissaJoi]

Not necessarily. If the rules of war apply-- and I think it's arguable that they may-- then she is no more a murderer than is a soldier who lines up an enemy in his sights and pulls the trigger. Both acts are equally premeditated.

I think it has been established on this show that normal legal means are pretty much useless in Smallville and Metropolis. The cops are corrupt or inept, and the courts are powerless. The government is in fact a big, shadowy conspiracy that's bent on persecuting the good guys and advancing the cause of evil or looking the other way as evil prospers.

The good guys have operated outside the law from day one. Breaking and entering, hacking databases, stealing confidential medical files. It's the only way to get things done in a world like the one on this show.

Chloe is a killer. But she was a killer before long Sebastian-- he was her second. The first one was justified... well, didn't she also have justification in Sebastian's case? The guy was dangerous. Who was going so stop him, if she didn't? The cops, the courts? They're useless.

Plus, it is not proven that she intended to kill Sebastian. She spoke of "crashing" him like a computer. I can imagine a smart lawyer parlaying that into a reasonable enough doubt.

Chloe is a killer but she isn't a murderer until she is found guilty of murder by a jury. Now that would make an interesting court case! Precious little legal precedent there. She's using powers that no human being has ever had before. Good luck proving that she knew beforehand they would prove fatal. She's using them on a guy whose weird powers pose a threat of unknown--possibly colossal--magnitude.

If Sebastian exposed Clark, neutralizing him so that evil might triumph, how many innocents could die as a result? Is what Chloe did entirely unjustified, either legally or morally?

Undeniably, she headed down a dark path and her zeal to protect Clark is becoming more and more troubling. It presents a dicey moral question, what she did. But I maintain that it is an open question, not simply murder.



Actaeon---I'm with you. The rules of war definitely apply here. A war, that is in part, engineered by Brainiac. Chloe is, and has always been, one of Clark's strongest defenders. I think that kind of loyalty has made her capable of many things---even murder. I don't think that Brainiac is wholly to blame for the murder, although I will say that I think Brainiac's INFLUENCE has made Chloe ruthless. You can't have something like Brainiac lurking around inside you and not have some of that personality rub off on you.



But, even with Brainiac's influence, Chloe clearly knew what she was doing. She went to that hospital intent on finding out what Sebastian knew and if it was enough information to the point that it was going to hurt Clark---she was going to dispose of the problem. I mean, think about it, if it was all Brainiac why would he bother killing Sebastian??? He wants Clark out of his way so if this guy Sebastian is going to cause enough problems to keep Clark out of the picture---then why kill him? The only reason I could think of Brainiac killing Sebastian is to have the satisfaction of disposing of Clark himself, but Clark has proven himself against Brainiac more than once....so I'm kind of leaning toward Brainiac taking the easy way out.




But, back to the main topic----Acteaon is right, the good guys have operated outside of the confines of justice since day one. After all that they have done for the world I don't know that I feel that a human court is fit to judge their sins. I mean, Clark is inherently moral, always has been. While he may be angry and disappointed by Chloe's actions, I think that he is starting to learn the value of pragmatism this season. There is always going to be someone who's going to do what needs to be done and if Clark can't pull the trigger--someone else will.




I think what Chloe has done is fully justifiable. Morally questionable....sure, but Clark's secret needs to be protected until he is ready to reveal it and humanity is ready to receive it.



As for Clark turning Chloe in to the police? No way. Seriously, if we want to start being morally overzealous then Clark should turn himself in.I mean he robbed those banks under the influence of red kryptonite, but he also knew that Lionel killed Oliver's parents not to mention numerous others. But, Clark still didn't turn him in---he continued working with Lionel.




The arguments go on and on....does anyone think this is a serious case of "Who watches the Watchmen"? Because the ambiguity is endless.

[Bizarrolover]

But, back to the main topic----Acteaon is right, the good guys have operated outside of the confines of justice since day one. After all that they have done for the world I don't know that I feel that a human court is fit to judge their sins. I mean, Clark is inherently moral, always has been. While he may be angry and disappointed by Chloe's actions, I think that he is starting to learn the value of pragmatism this season. There is always going to be someone who's going to do what needs to be done and if Clark can't pull the trigger--someone else will.

I think what Chloe has done is fully justifiable. Morally questionable....sure, but Clark's secret needs to be protected until he is ready to reveal it and humanity is ready to receive it.

As for Clark turning Chloe in to the police? No way. Seriously, if we want to start being morally overzealous then Clark should turn himself in.I mean he robbed those banks under the influence of red kryptonite, but he also knew that Lionel killed Oliver's parents not to mention numerous others. But, Clark still didn't turn him in---he continued working with Lionel.

The arguments go on and on....does anyone think this is a serious case of "Who watches the Watchmen"? Because the ambiguity is endless.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but I don't think Chloe's actions justifiable. She killed Sebastian without any confirmation of what he really knew about Clark or what he was going to do with that information. She only asked him what he knew, he said 'enough' and the guy is dead a second later. Any jury will convict her, because she killed someone 'just in case'.

My question is, who decides what situation is dangerous for Clark or not? Hypotetically speaking, if one day Chloe and Clark have a fight and they become enemies, is Ollie entitled to kill her if he thinks her knowledge of Clark's secret is dangerous for Clark? Is Clark entitled to kill everyone who learns his secret if he thinks his identity is at risk?

Clark would never deliberately take someone else's life to protect his identity, like Chloe did. His identity had been in danger several times, there are a handful of meteor freaks in Belle Reve that know who he is and what he can do, but killing them never crossed his mind. But Chloe doing something Clark will never do, just in case, is OK. Because it's Chloe and because she's protecting Clark, fans are justifying her actions. No one has the right to take someone else's life, not matter the reason. At least, I can't justify it.

As for Clark turning himself in S3, he should have. He didn't, but at least he returned all the money, so that counts. As for his relationship with Lionel, Clark was already in bad terms with him when he learned about the Queens' death. He didn't inform the police, that was wrong, and when Lionel died two weeks later, the subject was buried. So, while he commited his own sins, they can't be compared with what Chloe did to Sebastian.

[actaeon]

I think what Chloe has done is fully justifiable. Morally questionable....sure, but Clark's secret needs to be protected until he is ready to reveal it and humanity is ready to receive it.

Thank you! That's precisely it: what Chloe did was morally questionable, but hardly clear-cut murder. There's a moral argument involving the greater good, and whether or not the ends justify the means. The show has presented it as a grey area, and I think that's the way it should be. What Chloe did clearly troubles her, and I like what that says about the character. But I don't think she deserves to be turned over to a (clearly broken) criminal justice system or that she should be given a pass on the shaky excuse that "Brainiac made her do it."


why would the rules of war apply
Because on this show the good guys are on their own. The cops are useless or corrupt, the courts exist only to let people like Lex and Lionel get away with murder, and the government itself is involved in a conspiracy against Good. In brief, the normal protections of civil society are nonexistent. In a situation like this, where help is unavailable, people have a right to take matters into their own hands. A right both moral and legal. They have no other option. There are ugly choices to be faced from pure necessity.

One problem is that this show waffles on the idea of "taking the law into your own hands". Clark lectures some loose-cannon cops on this business, when he does it himself on practically a weekly basis. He has himself attacked and tried to kill people based on motives of personal vengeance-- something I find absolutely inexcusable.


As for Clark turning himself in S3, he should have. He didn't, but at least he returned all the money
He could not have returned all the money. He was living in wasteful luxury for a entire summer-- how was he going to give back the small fortune that must've cost? What about all the people he assaulted, including cops? The slate gets wiped clean-- bank robbery, assault and battery, a swath of destruction-- because he gives back some of the money he stole? And Clark can't even claim he did this for a higher purpose; he got himself high on Red K and did all that stuff for purely personal reasons.

[hanemg]

But, back to the main topic----Acteaon is right, the good guys have operated outside of the confines of justice since day one. After all that they have done for the world I don't know that I feel that a human court is fit to judge their sins.


"They chose the man who would kill over the man who wouldn't...and now they're dead."

-Magog to Superman in the nuclear wasteland of the mid-west created by Magog's own actions.

Kingdom Come #2


"The powers we have...the things we do...they're meant to inspire ordinary citizens...not intimidate them. We cannot act as judge and jury. We adhere to a moral code based on the preservation of life."

-Superman
Kingdom Come #3

[Bizarrolover]

He could not have returned all the money. He was living in wasteful luxury for a entire summer-- how was he going to give back the small fortune that must've cost? What about all the people he assaulted, including cops? The slate gets wiped clean-- bank robbery, assault and battery, a swath of destruction-- because he gives back some of the money he stole? And Clark can't even claim he did this for a higher purpose; he got himself high on Red K and did all that stuff for purely personal reasons.

What Clark did was wrong, but he was under the influence of a drug. In his case it's RedK. Maybe the right thing would have been to go to the police and turn himself in, but that would have been the end of Smallville. ;) And let's not forget that he didn't brush the subject under the rug and continued with his merry little life when he returned to Smallville. Clark suffered a lot because of what he did in Metropolis, Morgan Edge came after him and his family, and he paid a very high cost for his recklessness because it caused his father's heart condition and later his death. So, in one way, Clark paid for his sins.

I'm not saying Chloe should go to the police and turn herself in, but she should at least admit to herself that she killed someone in cold blood just because she thought the guy was dangerous. As I sated in my previous post, Chloe didn't have a clue of what Sebastian knew about Clark. as far as we know, the guy could have been bluffing. He only said he knew 'enough' and Chloe decided that 'enough' was enough to take his life. Maybe you can justify that behavior and think it's just 'moraly questionable' but I can't.

[Mars Investigations]

What Clark did was wrong, but he was under the influence of a drug. In his case it's RedK.

Ah, but he put on that RedK ring himself. So it's just like anyone taking drugs and committing a crime - do you let them off because they were on drugs, even though they willingly took them?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Seeing Chloe go back to her regular life as if nothing happened is like watching OJ Simpson get out of his murder trial. You know an injustice was done but there is nothing you can do about it and no one seems to care.

[CarissaJoi]

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but I don't think Chloe's actions justifiable. She killed Sebastian without any confirmation of what he really knew about Clark or what he was going to do with that information. She only asked him what he knew, he said 'enough' and the guy is dead a second later. Any jury will convict her, because she killed someone 'just in case'.

My question is, who decides what situation is dangerous for Clark or not? Hypotetically speaking, if one day Chloe and Clark have a fight and they become enemies, is Ollie entitled to kill her if he thinks her knowledge of Clark's secret is dangerous for Clark? Is Clark entitled to kill everyone who learns his secret if he thinks his identity is at risk?

Clark would never deliberately take someone else's life to protect his identity, like Chloe did. His identity had been in danger several times, there are a handful of meteor freaks in Belle Reve that know who he is and what he can do, but killing them never crossed his mind. But Chloe doing something Clark will never do, just in case, is OK. Because it's Chloe and because she's protecting Clark, fans are justifying her actions. No one has the right to take someone else's life, not matter the reason. At least, I can't justify it.



I agree that there are several meteor freaks who are aware of Clark and his abilities. But, society is operating under the assumption that they are "crazy" and thus, will never believe any of the things that come out of their mouth. I think where the Belle Reve inmates differ from Sebastian is that Sebastian had access to Clark's memories. The guy was a memory thief. We saw him demonstrate his abilities with Lois and Tess. So, we know that he lifted enough memories off of Clark to know that he is not your average news reporter.


We also know that Sebastian is willing to do whatever it takes to avoid ending up in a cell again. So, I really don't think it was a question of if he was going to tell someone about Clark's abilities. Tess had him and he knew it. He was going to feed her whatever information it took to make her leave him alone. Chloe was aware of what kind of a person he was and what he could do. That's why she did what she did.


I think the major problem with Clark's high moral stance is that it forces some people around him to do some things that are morally questionable which in turn enable him to maintain that high morality. I mean, Clark would never expect or ask anyone to do anything unsavory--it just happens as a consequence of their love for him. One thing that people in these situations are often forced to ask themselves is, "how far am I willing to go to protect the people I love?" Chloe was obviously willing to go above and beyond to protect Clark.


Does that make her a monster?? I don't think so. And like Actaeon said, what Chloe has done really does bother her. Chloe is still listening to her conscience and that is what differentiates her from people like Lex. She's a regular girl in extraordinary circumstances that was forced to make a difficult decision to preserve Clark's way of life and HIS ability to protect humanity. Should she turn herself in for that? She could, but to what point and purpose? I think any jury would be just as torn as we are.

[VagrantDream]

This is quite a fascinating thread.
However, it relies on the assumption that Chloe killed Sebastian. Which is not true, according to Smallville magazine.




As to what might happen with his Smallville character Sebastian, might he be redeemed? "Sebastian isn't dead," says Schmid. "He's indisposed. He also has no memory of his past, so if he did want to turn over a new leaf, it's possible now. Having his memory wiped clean turns him into a new person, which he was struggling with becoming this episode. I think it's a good thing for him [to have happened]." The way Chloiac crashed his brain wiped his memories, much like what Clark did to some of Chloe's.

[Sports72Xtrm]

This is quite a fascinating thread.
However, it relies on the assumption that Chloe killed Sebastian. Which is not true, according to Smallville magazine.

The way Chloiac crashed his brain wiped his memories, much like what Clark did to some of Chloe's.

Wow really? If they go with this I guess it will somewhat redeem Chloe. I guess. But geez why did they have to throw in the Oliver accusing Chloe scene and she just takes it. If that wasn't an admission of guilt than what was it? I guess the difference between bad guys and good guys is that good guys fail at killing people while bad guys succeed. God sometimes I just don't want to think when I watch Smallville.

[dru-zod2501]

This is quite a fascinating thread.
However, it relies on the assumption that Chloe killed Sebastian. Which is not true, according to Smallville magazine.

The way Chloiac crashed his brain wiped his memories, much like what Clark did to some of Chloe's.
when did that issue come out? I guess that should put a new light on things, though many will continue to call Chloe a murderer indefinitely

[VagrantDream]

Sports72Xtrm
It definitely sheds a whole new light on Requiem, providing that Smallville's writers remembered that point.
I think the Requiem scene might have been made to shed a new light on Oliver, the easiness with which he blackmailed Chloe showing the emerging darkness in his character.
It also might have been meant to stir up some conflict for Chloe. She may not know that Sebastian didn't die.

dru-zod2501
If I recall correctly, the interview happened somewhere in October, and it's the...
Edit: post below mine March/April issue.

[Diego*Chloe]

According to the March/April issue of Smallville Magazine, actor Kyle Schmid, who plays Sebastian Kane, says on page 93 "...Sebastian isn't dead...He's indisposed. He also has no memory of his past, so if he did want to turn over a new leaf, it's possible now. Having his memory wiped clean turns him into a new person, which he was struggling with becoming this episode. I think it's a good thing for him [to have happened.]" (boldface added)

Chloe is not capable of mind-wiping anyone. Chloiac, however, is. So Chloe did not act alone, nor did she kill Sebastian, in spite of Oliver's implication in Requiem.

so.....Sebastian is not even dead? jaja....jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaja jaja

Info from:

Eeyore840

[CK&CK]

I'm still not entirely convinced.

Call me blind to any or all of Chloe's faults, but Oliver's accusation doesn't amount to corroborating evidence in my book. The credibility is shaky at best, especially after what he did tonight of his own free will.

I know....and I agree....some people just want to see and believe what they want.....and the second anything remotely hints at their belief....they suddenly claim it as fact....when it most DEFINITELY IS NOT.

Because if so, then I would have just as much right to claim that Clark IS A KILLER FOR TRYING TO KILL Alicia's murderer........because had it not been for someone else (Lois) he would have killed the dude. Or would Clark have stopped himself?......Or would he be second guessing himself on whether he could have actually done it if it weren't for Lois?........to me....that's the same thing as Chloe doubting herself simply because she to wonders that if it meant protecting Clark.....would she be capable?.......Especially if she was being subliminally egged on by Brianiac. But I do know this.....that scene is HARDLY conclusive evidence......it's far from it........but again some people want to believe what they want so bad.....they start claiming it as fact...for whatever reason.......I don't know....maybe it makes themselves feel better about a character....a character that deep down....they honestly really hate. But who knows.

[Sports72Xtrm]

:lol: Wow Chloe fans way to have your cake and eat it too. It's wrong for Clark to mind wipe but its a blessing when Chloe does it but it's not wrong because she was under Braniac...ouch...my brain hurts. Oh man if anyone can spin this it's PS3. They really are going on damage control from Huricane Lana Arc and trying to redeem all the characters.

[Eeyore840]

According to the March/April issue of Smallville Magazine, actor Kyle Schmid, who plays Sebastian Kane, says on page 93 "...Sebastian isn't dead...He's indisposed. He also has no memory of his past, so if he did want to turn over a new leaf, it's possible now. Having his memory wiped clean turns him into a new person, which he was struggling with becoming this episode. I think it's a good thing for him [to have happened.]" (boldface added)

Chloe is not capable of mind-wiping anyone. Chloiac, however, is. So Chloe did not act alone, nor did she kill Sebastian, in spite of Oliver's implication in Requiem.

[madcatlady]

Well, that's a relief...sort of.

[VagrantDream]

Wow Chloe fans way to have your cake and eat it too. It's wrong for Clark to mind wipe but its a blessing when Chloe does it but it's not wrong because she was under Braniac...ouch...my brain hurts.

Well Kyle Schmid technically said it. Blame him for the confusion. :p

As a Chloe fan, I see Clark's actions as wrong because Chloe wasn't trying to kill him. She asked him not to take her memories of his secret because they were so important to her. When Clark took those memories he could have made her more vulnerable to Braniac.

I don't pass judgment on what Chloe did to Sebastian. (I wouldn't go so far as to call it a blessing.) However she was trying to protect Clark. cAnd its better than say...killing him.

[Bizarrolover]

Wow really? If they go with this I guess it will somewhat redeem Chloe. I guess. But geez why did they have to throw in the Oliver accusing Chloe scene and she just takes it. If that wasn't an admission of guilt than what was it? I guess the difference between bad guys and good guys is that good guys fail at killing people while bad guys succeed. God sometimes I just don't want to think when I watch Smallville.


So all this argument is in vain? LOL! I feel so stupid, arguing over an assumption.

Anyway, this information will also redeem Clark, as certain fans nearly crucifyied him for taking away part of Chloe's memories. Under extreme circumstances, Chloe and Clark did exactly the same thing, both thinking they were doing it for a greater good. Clark thought he was giving his friend a life free of the burden of his secret and Chloe thought she was protecting his friend's identity. It's interesting parallel. It will be intersting to see if those who accused Clark of mindraping will think Chloe is a mindrapist too. The 'crime' is exactly the same, and the motivation similar.

[Bizarrolover]

This is already being discussed in the 'So Chloe did kill sebastian w/o BrainIAC's influence (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119868)' thread.

[Eeyore840]

Well, the mods are free to delete this thread if they believe it is repetitive. I thought Chloe fans would appreciate this data without having to hunt through various "Chloe is a murderer" posts to find it.

[Chlollie]

Well, the mods are free to delete this thread if they believe it is repetitive. I thought Chloe fans would appreciate this data without having to hunt through various "Chloe is a murderer" posts to find it.

Thanks. I think is great, I won't know where to start looking for it.

[unfocused]

She did kill Sebastian, Oliver already said that. I'm really not sure what info Kyle Schmid has, but it's already been confirmed that his character died.

[miks]

Chloiac and Clark in no way did the same thing!

Clark took away her memories because he thought he was protecting her, even though she specifically said she would NEVER want those memories to be taken from her because it changed her life in a positive way and she never would have been able to do the good she's done.

Chloiac took away Sebastian's memories because she/it was protecting Clark from a dangerous man who was going to kill Lois, I think. This guy was too far gone and we have no idea what he would have done with the knowledge of Clark's secret. I don't really know if he's killed in the past, can someone enlighten me?

Either way, one is a criminal the other is a heroine. One shouldn't have known the secret in the first place and would possibly use it against Clark, while the other is his best friend who has done nothing but protect his secret and help him save the world countless times and is a better person, not just to everyone else but in her mind as well, because of his secret.

[Chlollie]

She did kill Sebastian, Oliver already said that. I'm really not sure what info Kyle Schmid has, but it's already been confirmed that his character died.

Oliver could have just lied to get Chloe not to tell Clark about what he did. I believe the Magazine. Plus Kyle Shmid is the person who played Sebastion from Smallville. And he said "Sebastian isn't dead...He's indisposed. He also has no memory of his past, so if he did want to turn over a new leaf, it's possible now. Having his memory wiped clean turns him into a new person, which he was struggling with becoming this episode. I think it's a good thing for him [to have happened.]"

[supervision]

Oliver could have just lied to get Chloe not to tell Clark about what he did. I believe the Magazine. Plus Kyle Shmid is the person who played Sebastion from Smallville. And he said "Sebastian isn't dead...He's indisposed. He also has no memory of his past, so if he did want to turn over a new leaf, it's possible now. Having his memory wiped clean turns him into a new person, which he was struggling with becoming this episode. I think it's a good thing for him [to have happened.]"
That is what I am hoping

[Sports72Xtrm]

This is Smallville. I throw all logic out the window. If someone has to look bad, I guess it can't be any of the leading ladies. Any of the leading men though are free to be corrupted and or most likely needed to be guided back to salvation...mostly likely by one of the leading ladies.:rolleyes:

[unfocused]

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but Sebastian has already been confirmed dead, and Oliver has the evidence... I'm not sure where Kyle Schmid gets his information, but it's obviously not from the Smallville crew.

Because on this show the good guys are on their own. The cops are useless or corrupt, the courts exist only to let people like Lex and Lionel get away with murder, and the government itself is involved in a conspiracy against Good. In brief, the normal protections of civil society are nonexistent. In a situation like this, where help is unavailable, people have a right to take matters into their own hands. A right both moral and legal. They have no other option. There are ugly choices to be faced from pure necessity.
That has nothing to do with war and it does not excuse murder. Maybe imprisonment, but not murder.


One problem is that this show waffles on the idea of "taking the law into your own hands". Clark lectures some loose-cannon cops on this business, when he does it himself on practically a weekly basis. He has himself attacked and tried to kill people based on motives of personal vengeance-- something I find absolutely inexcusable.
Clark doesn't kill cops. I don't know where you got the idea that he did, but that's what he lectured Dan Turpin on.


"They chose the man who would kill over the man who wouldn't...and now they're dead."

-Magog to Superman in the nuclear wasteland of the mid-west created by Magog's own actions.

Kingdom Come #2


"The powers we have...the things we do...they're meant to inspire ordinary citizens...not intimidate them. We cannot act as judge and jury. We adhere to a moral code based on the preservation of life."

-Superman
Kingdom Come #3

This is important. Some people seem to think Chloe murdered Sebastian for the greater good. But what greater good? So Clark can continue to keep his secret? Should Superman murder the entire world for knowing his secret? Some people seem to think so, and this is why this quote is important.

But the truth is, Chloe murdered an innocent man for knowing information that she did not want him to know. She didn't even murder him for a greater good...

[miks]

If we're going based on what people say in Smallville alone then Chloe didn't kill Sebastian. She said it herself, it was Brainiac. What's the point in arguing?

[Chlollie]

Oliver could be lying so Chloe won't tell about Lex, and what he did.

[Fallen One]

Kyle did that interview months ago. The producers obviously changed their minds about that storyline because Oliver clearly stated that Sebastian is DEAD, not mind wiped- dead. Show Canon says that Chloe killed Sebastian.

[unfocused]

Either way, one is a criminal the other is a heroine.

Lol, no. Don't call Chloe a heroine for murdering a defenseless man in a hospital bed.

[Eeyore840]

I think Chloe was disturbed by Oliver's accusation, because she knows she was present in Sebastian's room, although she was under Brainiac's control. She would never kill anyone unless it was in self-defense. She is questioning herself, and Oliver knew exactly how to twist the knife.

Kyle Schmid was interviewed by Smallville Magazine. If he was saying something false, I'm sure his statements would have been verified. If they are false, then there should be a correction in the next issue. I doubt that will happen.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but Sebastian has already been confirmed dead, and Oliver has the evidence... I'm not sure where Kyle Schmid gets his information, but it's obviously not from the Smallville crew.

That has nothing to do with war and it does not excuse murder. Maybe imprisonment, but not murder.


Clark doesn't kill cops. I don't know where you got the idea that he did, but that's what he lectured Dan Turpin on.



This is important. Some people seem to think Chloe murdered Sebastian for the greater good. But what greater good? So Clark can continue to keep his secret? Should Superman murder the entire world for knowing his secret? Some people seem to think so, and this is why this quote is important.

But the truth is, Chloe murdered an innocent man for knowing information that she did not want him to know. She didn't even murder him for a greater good...

This. Clark's presence is meant to inspire good. Not madness. But from what I can tell so far (I take the interview with a grain of salt)... Ollie and Chloe are doing evil things and using Clark as an excuse.

[Chlollie]

Kyle did that interview months ago. The producers obviously changed their minds about that storyline because Oliver clearly stated that Sebastian is DEAD, not mind wiped- dead. Show Canon says that Chloe killed Sebastian.

Oliver could be lying, you don't know that. We just have to wait and see if anything.

[Hopefulsuicide]

He may not have been lying, but i'd chalk it up to the wonderful lack of consistency between everyone involved in the show.

The actor thought his character hadn't died... but most probably has not seen most recent episode in which it is stated that he did die...

[miks]

Kyle did that interview months ago. The producers obviously changed their minds about that storyline because Oliver clearly stated that Sebastian is DEAD, not mind wiped- dead. Show Canon says that Chloe killed Sebastian.

Show cannon also says that Brainiac killed Sebastian. Chloe said it herself. And if anyone would know, it would be her...not Ollie.

[unfocused]

Storylines get scrapped sometimes. I remember when Adrianne Palicki was told she and her character would return. I was quite happy about that, but it never happened.

[dru-zod2501]

:lol: Wow Chloe fans way to have your cake and eat it too. It's wrong for Clark to mind wipe but its a blessing when Chloe does it but it's not wrong because she was under Braniac...ouch...my brain hurts. Oh man if anyone can spin this it's PS3. They really are going on damage control from Huricane Lana Arc and trying to redeem all the characters.
I never said it was a blessing what Chloe-IAC did, nor did I say it wasn't wrong

[morena]

maybe he said this: sebastian is not dead because he must have done a scene where shows Sebastian lives and his memory wiped clean

[unfocused]

...this is getting silly. But I would love to join in! So if liek show cannon is rite, then Chloe did kill Sebastian cuz Oliver said she did after she said she didn't! And since Oliver has the proof, then he would know!

But seriously. I really am sorry to all the Chloe fans, but she did kill the man. As she walked away from the murder scene, Sebastian flatlines. That means he died. And this is evidence of that death. Now, you can come back and say "oh but the doctors could have revived him!" But then that would be stretching it even further than you already have.

[miks]

That would be a plausible explanation morena. That would be nice but Smallville isn't really known for it's continuity..:\

[miks]

oh but the doctors could have revived him!...

Because you know that's not plausible at all..

Anyway. How does Ollie have proof that it was Chloe killing Sebastian? Oh yeah that's right, he has the camera footage! But does he have a secret mind reading ability as well? Chloe said it was Brainiac; he was inside HER head, not Ollie's.

[unfocused]

Chloe was lying.

[Chlollie]

Chloe was lying.

Oliver could be lying.

[unfocused]

Then he's much better at it than Chloe is.

[miks]

Yup, that's the perfect excuse. If someone in Smallville you don't like says something you don't like just say they were lying. Fine. I'm going to use that for future reference.

Like now! Clark was lying when he said he was from Krypton. He's actually here to kill everyone at the Daily Planet, that's clearly how he got the job!:lol:

[morena]

That would be a plausible explanation morena. That would be nice but Smallville isn't really known for it's continuity..:\


but the scene may have been cut

what I mean is that they made the scene, but it can not be showed


but if Sebastian is really alive, I believe that Oliver knows the truth and it will return again

[unfocused]

Why do you use Clark in your avatar if you don't like him?

[miks]

I think you may be right Morena. I think Ollie knows he's still alive and isn't telling Chloe so she won't say anything about the whole Lex incident.

[miks]

It was a joke...sort of.

[GrimmReeper]

at first i was thinking that chloe was being influenced by brainiac, but now i'm starting to believe that it really was chloe who killed Sebastian. I would have never thought chloe could be capable of murder. meaning i could see lana do something like this before i could picture chloe doing it.

[~*Lois & Clark Fan*~]

I thought Chloe herself confirmed she did kill Sebastian?

[morena]

Kyle did that interview months ago. The producers obviously changed their minds about that storyline because Oliver clearly stated that Sebastian is DEAD, not mind wiped- dead. Show Canon says that Chloe killed Sebastian.
maybe he said this: sebastian is not dead because he must have done a scene where shows Sebastian lives and his memory wiped clean
but the scene may have been cut
what I mean is that they made the scene, but it can not be showed
but if Sebastian is really alive, I believe that Oliver knows the truth and it will return again

[miks]

I thought Chloe herself confirmed she did kill Sebastian?

Chloe confirmed that it was Brainiac.

[Dyanara]

I dont know what went on in the scene but I really think you guys are just grasping at straws to try to redeem Chloe. Chloe would know what she was trying to do when she touched Sebastian, kill him or wipe his mind clean. So if what Oliver said disturbed her she would know that it was because she intentionally went to take Sebastian down to keep Clark said. She could have just easily said, you liar I didnt kill him I wiped his mind clean...and ended Oliver's wannabe guilt trip.

[unfocused]

Great point^^^

[unfocused]

I thought Chloe herself confirmed she did kill Sebastian?

She did.

[morena]

I dont know what went on in the scene but I really think you guys are just grasping at straws to try to redeem Chloe. Chloe would know what she was trying to do when she touched Sebastian, kill him or wipe his mind clean. So if what Oliver said disturbed her she would know that it was because she intentionally went to take Sebastian down to keep Clark said. She could have just easily said, you liar I didnt kill him I wiped his mind clean...and ended Oliver's wannabe guilt trip.
as said Atomic girl
Chloe can't prove that Brainiac had control of her, it was pointless to say anything beyond what she did. Oliver was trying to justify his actions. He never mentioned this before, only when it served his purpose. Brainiac needed Clark to do certain things for him, so it makes sense to "protect" him for his purpose. We know Brainiac would never do it for the sole purpose of helping Clark.



Chloe was confused. She's doubting herself. She feels guilty for what happened and some part of her is wondering if she had any control over it or not.
Oliver played on Chloe fears that she might have really killed Sebastain. I think Chloe unsure of herself, what happened to her during the Brainaic arc.

[unfocused]

The point is, it doesn't matter so much if Chloe knows or not. Many times the audience is given the information before the character is. And this is one of the times. Chloe may have been confused, but some of us aren't.

It's obvious that Chloe would go to extreme measures to protect that secret, and it's obvious that she knew about the murder. It's also obvious that Chloe premeditated the murder, and it's obvious that Chloe lied to Oliver when she so weakly said "that was brainIAC, not me." That is more than enough evidence to prove her guilt. Guilt, exactly what Chloe was feeling after leaving Sebastian's room, the same guilt she felt when Oliver called her out on the murder. Chloe is, without a doubt, guilty of Sebastian's murder.

[miks]

really when?

[unfocused]

In Requiem.

[miks]

she said SHE killed Sebastian? Or did she say Brainiac did?

[unfocused]

She lied about BrainIAC killing Sebastian, that means she killed Sebastian.

[miks]

You're right. Like I said before. She obviously lied. That's the only possible explanation...note the sarcasm.

[unfocused]

Thanks for the sarcasm.

[miks]

you're welcome!

Using the excuse that she was lying because you don't like what she said isn't fair.

[DigitalKing]

Thanks for the sarcasm.
What else can you expect, really? You're saying that Chloe's a killer because she lied about Brainiac killing Sebastian, because she's really the killer.

Do you not see that this is a circular argument?

"Chloe killed Sebastian."
"Uh...how so?"
"Well, she lied and said that it was Brainiac, and she would have only lied if it was she who killed Sebastian."
"How is that a lie?"
"Because she's the one who killed Sebastian."
"..."

Am I misunderstanding? Was Brainiac not in Chloe's body? Does Oliver have the power to read minds? Oliver questioned Chloe about Sebastian's death, and Chloe denied involvement.

During Transference, did Clark smash through the desk? Did Clark catch Lana and Jason kissing? Did Clark involuntarily flame-off because he was hugging his mother? During Bloodline, did Lois kill a random guy and shove a pipe through Davis? Let's go even further. Did Clark or Chloe try to burn down the school in Spirit? Did Chloe willingly kiss Mikhail in Jinx? Did Jonathan willingly sell Bob the farm in Hug?

I apologize if I am misrepresenting your position, but I honestly cannot see what it is you are arguing if not this.

[miks]

that's a good way to put it digitalking.

[unfocused]

Chloe initially denied involvement. But when Oliver told her about the proof he had, she stopped denying it and began aiding him in his quest for murder (which she agreed with, by the way).

If Chloe didn't murder Sebastian, then why did she not fight Oliver on the subject after he said he had proof? if she didn't kill anyone, she'd know there was no proof. But since there is proof, then she did kill Sebastian.

[devilneedsaride]

Chloe initially denied involvement. But when Oliver told her about the proof he had, she stopped denying it and began aiding him in his quest for murder (which she agreed with, by the way).

If Chloe didn't murder Sebastian, then why did she not fight Oliver on the subject after he said he had proof? if she didn't kill anyone, she'd know there was no proof. But since there is proof, then she did kill Sebastian.

There is more than one way to interpret her reaction. She could be acting guiltily because she actually is guilty, or she could be acting guilty because she FEELS guilty because her body was used to commit murder/mindwipe/whatever it is. Emotions are not always logical, especially in traumatic situations, so you can't necessarily rely on her emotional reaction to give you a clear picture of what happened.

Additionally, there is pretty much NO way for Oliver to have any kind of proof about whether it was Chloe or Brainiac in Chloe's body. He could have proof that her body committed the act, but he couldn't know which inhabitant was at the helm at the time. Just because there's proof that her body was used to kill Sebastian doesn't mean there's proof that it was her holding the reins.


For one of the posters above, I don't think most of us are claiming that the murder/mindwipe was a okay thing, just that if Brainiac was influencing or controlling Chloe, then Brainiac is responsible for it and not Chloe. What Clark did was entirely and unquestionably of his own volition.

[devilneedsaride]

The point is, it doesn't matter so much if Chloe knows or not. Many times the audience is given the information before the character is. And this is one of the times. Chloe may have been confused, but some of us aren't.

It's obvious that Chloe would go to extreme measures to protect that secret, and it's obvious that she knew about the murder. It's also obvious that Chloe premeditated the murder, and it's obvious that Chloe lied to Oliver when she so weakly said "that was brainIAC, not me." That is more than enough evidence to prove her guilt. Guilt, exactly what Chloe was feeling after leaving Sebastian's room, the same guilt she felt when Oliver called her out on the murder. Chloe is, without a doubt, guilty of Sebastian's murder.

Dude, you're taking things that can be legitimately interpreted in multiple ways and insisting that YOUR interpretation is the only valid one. There are some things on the show that are unambiguous. This is not one of them.

[unfocused]

Thanks for the reply.

See, that's one of the major problems. That we can sit here and debate Chloe's innocence with each other, but Chloe herself cannot. Of course Oliver couldn't read her mind. But he didn't need to read her mind to prove she was lying, she already knew it. That's why she didn't fight back.

[unfocused]

It's called an opinion, a belief. Everyone is entitled to their own, get over it.

[Bizarrolover]

Chloiac and Clark in no way did the same thing!

Clark took away her memories because he thought he was protecting her, even though she specifically said she would NEVER want those memories to be taken from her because it changed her life in a positive way and she never would have been able to do the good she's done.

Chloiac took away Sebastian's memories because she/it was protecting Clark from a dangerous man who was going to kill Lois, I think. This guy was too far gone and we have no idea what he would have done with the knowledge of Clark's secret. I don't really know if he's killed in the past, can someone enlighten me?

Either way, one is a criminal the other is a heroine. One shouldn't have known the secret in the first place and would possibly use it against Clark, while the other is his best friend who has done nothing but protect his secret and help him save the world countless times and is a better person, not just to everyone else but in her mind as well, because of his secret.

I'm sorry to disagree, but Chloe and Clark did exactly the same thing under similar circumstances. The information both victims beheld was exactly the same but one 'deserved' the mindwipe an the other didn't.

If Sebastian is still alive (and now I'm going to wait to see him walking the streets of Metropolis to believe that) and without memory of his previous life, then Chloe lobotomized him. And that is a crime. She has no right to take someone's past away no matter how bad they are, in the same way you think Clark had no right to erase part of Chloe's past. They both believed they were doing it for a greater good (Clark truly thought he was giving Chloe a happier life) and neither had the right to do it. Maybe you think Chloe can do no wrong, but she and Clark committed exactly the same crime under similar circumstances. One was justified, the other was crucifyied.

As for Chloe not wanting Clark to take her memories away, did she ask Sebastian if he wanted to keep his before turning him into a vegetable? No, she didn't, so we'll never know. I'm sure that given the chance, Sebastian would have chosen to keep his past. But, as Sebastian is a bad guy holding dangerous information (though that was never conf¡rmed) he didn't deserve such consideration and was lobotimized. On the other hand Chloe, being a good girl and a responsible defensor of Clark's secret, deserves to keep hers.

At least one thing came out form this discussion. It's always Clark's fault.

[Mars Investigations]

I still say that the only explanation is not as clear-cut as "Brainiac killed Sebastian" or "Chloe killed Sebastian". It's a mixture of both personalities ad showed the beginning of Brainiac influencing Chloe beyond her intelligence. Basically, what I'm saying is this:

*Chloe went to visit Sebastian to ensure that he had no knowledge of Clark's secret.
*She had the desire and motivation to protect that secret.
*She would never have gone to the lengths of murder to protect it, but Brainiac's influence leads her to go further than she ordinarily would.

So, Chloe's motivation + Brainiac's willingness to kill to achieve his goal = dead Sebastian.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

So, Chloe's motivation + Brainiac's willingness to kill to achieve his goal = dead Sebastian.

i bolded this as im confused as to how killing sebastian helped brainiac?

[morena]

i bolded this as im confused as to how killing sebastian helped brainiac?
he wanted control of the FOS, and the only Clark would go, then had to protect Clark

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

he wanted control of the FOS, and the only Clark would go, then had to protect Clark

yet in "abyss" showed that brainiac had to force clark into taking chloe to the FOS

so brainiac had nothing to gain in killing sebastian, if brainiac really had any influence over chloe then brainiac would have acted upon clarks warning to get rid of him in "toxic"

[DigitalKing]

Who would have taken Chloe/Brainiac to the FOS had Clark been outed by Sebastian? How did Brainiac have nothing to gain?

[unfocused]

he wanted control of the FOS, and the only Clark would go, then had to protect Clark
Protect Clark from what? Sebastian tattle telling on Clark? That theory never made sense to me.

BrainAIC never influenced/controlled Chloe before or after the murder, and he never influenced/controlled Chloe to become attracted to Davis. Why not?

[Kalista]

Who would have taken Chloe/Brainiac to the FOS had Clark been outed by Sebastian? How did Brainiac have nothing to gain?


Exactly. Brainiac wasn't willing to let anything interfere with his plans to infect the FOS.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Who would have taken Chloe/Brainiac to the FOS had Clark been outed by Sebastian? How did Brainiac have nothing to gain?

outed as a superpowered alien without proof

theres a reason why Van McNulty (season 3 ep extinction) was put in belle reve

[Hopefulsuicide]

Thing is, for once James, i agree with your opinion :lol:

I do think that the way Chloe said it suggested guilt, and that she knew what she was saying wasn't true.

What i don't understand is the logic behind it. Because, yes, it would make Clark safer, but Chloe has been shown to be a rational person thus far, and a rational person would need much more of an actual threat than simply the fact he knew, in order to kill him.

I mean, i can think of times when the heroes sidekick has committed murder, and it seemed justified. The one than stands out the most is Giles suffocating Ben (who shares the same body as Glory). That felt completely justified to me, because Glory was such a ridiculously imminent threat. It was still sad, because at the end of the day, Ben was very much manipulated into villainy with the promise of freedom (much like Sebastian was).

But Sebastian was not anywhere near as huge a threat as Glory.

Then again, how would she have stopped him from revealing Clark's secret? How would they have come up against that threat. He probably would have gone straight to Tess and told her.

Hmmmm, it's difficult...

[Hopefulsuicide]

good point... and makes Chloe killing him of her own choice even more unreasonable

[Bizarrolover]

Who would have taken Chloe/Brainiac to the FOS had Clark been outed by Sebastian? How did Brainiac have nothing to gain?

Exaclty how much did Sebastian know about Clark? he had to touch Lois twice and for a longer period to learn what she knew about him and he only touched clark for a fraction of a second. So how could he possibly know how to 'out' Clark? You are assuming Sebastian was dangerous for Clark, but in reallity we don't know what he knew.

[DontCha]

well they didnt make that particularly clear in the episode itself did they?

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Chloe is not capable of mind-wiping anyone. Chloiac, however, is. So Chloe did not act alone, nor did she kill Sebastian, in spite of Oliver's implication in Requiem.

correct me if im wrong whenever chloe has used brainiac to help people didnt oliver see her doing it with her own free will, as far as oliver is lead to believe it was chloe who saved him in "toxic", chloe making the decision to save clark and kara in "bloodline"

so chloe used brainiac again to dispose of sebastian

[Eeyore840]

correct me if im wrong whenever chloe has used brainiac to help people didnt oliver see her doing it with her own free will, as far as oliver is lead to believe it was chloe who saved him in "toxic", chloe making the decision to save clark and kara in "bloodline"

so chloe used brainiac again to dispose of sebastian

Chloe is (was?) a good person--of course she would use her Brainiac abilities to help people. With the lightswitch of her character now, I suppose the writers are telling us she used her Brainiac abilities to murder Sebastian? Whatever, show. They can't even keep their own stories straight--why should we bother anymore? :rolleyes:

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Chloe is (was?) a good person--of course she would use her Brainiac abilities to help people. With the lightswitch of her character now, I suppose the writers are telling us she used her Brainiac abilities to murder Sebastian? Whatever, show. They can't even keep their own stories straight--why should we bother anymore? :rolleyes:

well if she made the decision to help people using brainiac why is it suddenly brainiacs decision that sebastian is disposed of

[VagrantDream]

This may be a little off topic, but...

unfocused
you said that it has been confirmed that Chloe killed Sebastian. May I asked how you are so sure? (Do you have a source other than what we've heard in Requiem?)

[Mars Investigations]

i bolded this as im confused as to how killing sebastian helped brainiac?

I'm not saying protecting Clark was Brainiac's goal. I'm saying that Brainiac was always willing to kill to achieve his goal, no matter what it was - he's infecting Chloe, her goal is to protect Clark, and so his willingness to kill emerged through her.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

I'm not saying protecting Clark was Brainiac's goal. I'm saying that Brainiac was always willing to kill to achieve his goal, no matter what it was - he's infecting Chloe, her goal is to protect Clark, and so his willingness to kill emerged through her.

so then brainiac was desperate to help oliver in "toxic" then save clark and kara in "bloodline"

if chloe was in control of brainiacs abilities when chloe helped said people then the same can be said when she disposed of sebastian

[batfinx]

I watched the scene again and it can't be interpreted as anything other than a premeditated action. She wanted to know what Sebastian found out about "the man who stopped you" meaning Clark. He said "let's just say he shouldn't have touched me. Guys like him belong in places like Black Creek".

Chloe took off her gloves and said "The mind is simply a highly sophisticated computer. Download too much information and it crashes and all the data is lost."

Sebastian: "What's that supposed to mean?"

Chloe: "Here, let me show you."

She grabbed his wrist. He started moaning in pain. It's like data was swirling in his eyes and then his eyes went dark and then just stared blankly and unresponsive. His medical monitor started beeping wildly and then doctors and nurses started shouting things like "code blue!" "He's having a stroke" "It's cardiac"

My impression from Chloe's dialogue is that she overloaded his mind till it crashed, she didn't erase his memories. When the brain crashes, it can't sustain the body and the body dies. There would've been no way to resuscitate him. He'd have to go on full life support. But even if he did go on life support, he's show no brainwave activity and so he'd be unplugged and his body would die.

Originally the concept could've been about wiping the guy's memory clean, but it is an easy scene to redo without the guest actor being there since they were doing POV shots in the hospital room. The producers could've decided later that they were going to go darker with Chloe's actions and so filmed her giving different dialogue to a stand-in at a later date and that's why the actor's recollection of the scene doesn't jibe with what aired, or with Oliver's dialogue. Chloe didn't deny that Sebastian was killed, so it seems clear they went ahead with the idea that Chloe killed the guy.

Now all that said, I don't think Chloe would've killed the guy with a knife or poison or whatever if Brainiac's method wasn't available. Brainiac is a machine and probably when Chloe was trying to think of a way to take care of the problem, Brainiac provided a calculated solution and she ran with it. Both Chloe and Oliver have committed murder to make preemptive strikes to protect Clark. Even Lana was going to do that before she became Super Saint. How would Clark feel about this? I think we'll find out.

[Mars Investigations]

so then brainiac was desperate to help oliver in "toxic" then save clark and kara in "bloodline"

if chloe was in control of brainiacs abilities when chloe helped said people then the same can be said when she disposed of sebastian

Whaaaat?

Sorry, but I honestly don't see how you made that jump from my post. I never said that Chloe was ever in control of Brainiac or his abilities. :confused:

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Whaaaat?

Sorry, but I honestly don't see how you made that jump from my post. I never said that Chloe was ever in control of Brainiac or his abilities. :confused:

ok im sorry i interpretted it that way, the result is the same why would brainiac give a damn about oliver, clark or kara

heck it was kara who gave clark the shield to removing brainiac from chloe (legions original timeline)

[Mars Investigations]

ok im sorry i interpretted it that way, the result is the same why would brainiac give a damn about oliver, clark or kara

heck it was kara who gave clark the shield to removing brainiac from chloe (legions original timeline)

Again, you're not understaning what I'm saying. I am in no way suggesting that Brainiac wanted to protect Oliver or Clark or whoever else. What I'm saying is that the actions are as a result of Chloe's motivations (so her desire to protect Oliver/Clark/whoever) and Brainiac's immoral methods.

So, in the case of Sebastian:

Chloe wanted to protect Clark's secret. Brainiac was willing to kill. Put these together and you get Sebastian's corpse.

[Eeyore840]

I disagree that Chloe was the one asking all of those questions before touching Sebastian. It was Chloiac, IMO. However, until the writers make a definitive clarifying statement, there is room for speculation.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

I disagree that Chloe was the one asking all of those questions before touching Sebastian. It was Chloiac, IMO. However, until the writers make a definitive clarifying statement, there is room for speculation.

brainiac has sure turned sentimental helping oliver, then saving clark and kara

if you maintain brainiac did the memory wipe on sebastian then it was brainiac who helped the others, its a double standard otherwise

plus in "legion" we learned that the shield which kara gave clark would have removed brainiac from chloe in the original timeline, so why the heck would it risk saving them in "bloodline"

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Again, you're not understaning what I'm saying. I am in no way suggesting that Brainiac wanted to protect Oliver or Clark or whoever else. What I'm saying is that the actions are as a result of Chloe's motivations (so her desire to protect Oliver/Clark/whoever) and Brainiac's immoral methods.

So, in the case of Sebastian:

Chloe wanted to protect Clark's secret. Brainiac was willing to kill. Put these together and you get Sebastian's corpse.

whethere or not brainiac is willing to kill, its a double standard for people saying chloe helped her friends using brainiacs abilities, yet once sebastian was disposed off its all brainiacs fault

im sorry it doesnt wash with me whats good enough for 1 is good enough for another otherwise its doublestandard

[Mars Investigations]

whethere or not brainiac is willing to kill, its a double standard for people saying chloe helped her friends using brainiacs abilities, yet once sebastian was disposed off its all brainiacs fault

im sorry it doesnt wash with me whats good enough for 1 is good enough for another otherwise its doublestandard

I don't see where the double standard comes into play. If Chloe hadn't been infected by Brainiac, she wouldn't have killed Sebastian, and she wasn't willingly infected by Brainiac.

This is vastly different to, say, Clark willingly putting on the RedK ring and committing crimes.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

I don't see where the double standard comes into play. If Chloe hadn't been infected by Brainiac, she wouldn't have killed Sebastian, and she wasn't willingly infected by Brainiac.

This is vastly different to, say, Clark willingly putting on the RedK ring and committing crimes.

i cant remember all of clarks red-k moments can you remind me of when he saved people while red-k infected?

[Eeyore840]

Brainiac needs Clark around so Doomsday can kill him, that's why he didn't want Clark left in the Phantom Zone.

Brainiac was taking over Chloe's mind little by little, not all at once. Sometimes she was in control, and sometimes she was manipulated by Brainiac to do things he wanted her to do. Remember when Lana was burning herself on the stove at the farm after she was possessed by Brainiac? Are you going to argue that Lana was doing that of her own free will? Of course not--that was totally Brainiac! But Chloe's healing power protected her from complete mind control for a time, until Brainiac found a way to get around that problem.

The main problem is that the writing is inconsistent. I don't even think they watch their own show from week to week. I am a Chloe fan--I believe she is good, and until I hear from TPTB that she killed Sebastian, I will not believe it.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Brainiac needs Clark around so Doomsday can kill him, that's why he didn't want Clark left in the Phantom Zone.

Brainiac was taking over Chloe's mind little by little, not all at once. Sometimes she was in control, and sometimes she was manipulated by Brainiac to do things he wanted her to do. Remember when Lana was burning herself on the stove at the farm after she was possessed by Brainiac? Are you going to argue that Lana was doing that of her own free will? Of course not--that was totally Brainiac! But Chloe's healing power protected her from complete mind control for a time, until Brainiac found a way to get around that problem.

The main problem is that the writing is inconsistent. I don't even think they watch their own show from week to week. I am a Chloe fan--I believe she is good, and until I hear from TPTB that she killed Sebastian, I will not believe it.


chloe isnt a favourite of mine though i wont say i dislike her, so i guess we will agree to disagree on who was the culprit against sebastian

[Eeyore840]

chloe isnt a favourite of mine though i wont say i dislike her, so i guess we will agree to disagree on who was the culprit against sebastian

Okay. :)

[Mars Investigations]

i cant remember all of clarks red-k moments can you remind me of when he saved people while red-k infected?

He didn't. But RedK is completely different to the Brainiac infection; whereas it has an immediate and complete effect, Brainiac only affected the way in which Chloe dealt with problems. She didn't consciously set out to murder Sebastian, to tap into the crystal, or to use superstrength. It just happened as a result of the growing influence Brainiac had upon her.

Just to emphasise my point once again, to make it clear, I am not saying that Brainiac wanted to save anyone. But Chloe did, and she unconsciously drew upon his power to do so. At the hospital, she wanted to protect Clark's secret, and Brainiac's ruthlessness influenced her to take Sebastian's life. Without Brainiac, she would not have done that; you can see that she is visibly shocked at herself when she leaves.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

He didn't. But RedK is completely different to the Brainiac infection; whereas it has an immediate and complete effect, Brainiac only affected the way in which Chloe dealt with problems. She didn't consciously set out to murder Sebastian, to tap into the crystal, or to use superstrength. It just happened as a result of the growing influence Brainiac had upon her.

Just to emphasise my point once again, to make it clear, I am not saying that Brainiac wanted to save anyone. But Chloe did, and she unconsciously drew upon his power to do so. At the hospital, she wanted to protect Clark's secret, and Brainiac's ruthlessness influenced her to take Sebastian's life. Without Brainiac, she would not have done that; you can see that she is visibly shocked at herself when she leaves.

then if the infections are different i fail to see why you brought it up, since clark never helped any1 while on red-k compared to chloiac

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on chloes actions

[Diego*Chloe]

Chloe murdered an innocent man

Sure.

[Mars Investigations]

then if the infections are different i fail to see why you brought it up, since clark never helped any1 while on red-k compared to chloiac

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on chloes actions

Because the issue is of responsibility about Sebastian's death, not of any other actions Chloe took whilst under Brainiac's influence. The debate is: is Chloe responsible or not?

I used the RedK as a comparison to prove that she was not.

[TheANIMAL (marcus)]

Hot Damn she did, the sexy girl, and quite right too. Look at the mess caused by her not killing Tori Spelling......

[TheANIMAL (marcus)]

Hot damn she did, the boy was a psychotic menace.


Lethal injection after a fair trial or death by brainiac powers, i know which is less drawn out.

[CarissaJoi]

She didn't consciously set out to murder Sebastian, to tap into the crystal, or to use superstrength. It just happened as a result of the growing influence Brainiac had upon her.

Just to emphasise my point once again, to make it clear, I am not saying that Brainiac wanted to save anyone. But Chloe did, and she unconsciously drew upon his power to do so. At the hospital, she wanted to protect Clark's secret, and Brainiac's ruthlessness influenced her to take Sebastian's life. Without Brainiac, she would not have done that; you can see that she is visibly shocked at herself when she leaves.


While I do agree that Brainiac definitely made Chloe more ruthless, I don't know if you can really place the blame for Sebastian Kane's murder entirely upon Brainiac's influence. If anything, Sebastian would have been useful to Brainiac because HE could cause enough problems for Clark by outing him that it would keep Clark out of the way. But, I honestly don't think Brainiac cared if this guy lived or died.


Chloe consciously tapped into her abilites from Brainiac. I don't know if she was prepared for how powerful those abilities were, but she told Clark: "Im choosing to look at this as a gift". So, we have to infer that whatever abilities arose from her Brainiac "infection", she was going to use to help aid Clark. We can say that Brainiac lent a little extra ruthlessness to Chloe's character, but ultimately the choice to dispose of Sebastian was hers. She consciously tapped into her Brainiac enabled abilities to kill him. Just as she consciously tapped into those abilities to bail Clark out of the Phantom Zone and hack computers.


Chloe knew what she was going to do when she walked into that hospital. While I do agree that we don't know exactly how much information Kane gleaned from Clark, if we use the scenes where he pilfered memories from Tess and Lois as an example---at the very least, Kane was able to relive the last few minutes of his hosts memories. Which means that while Kane may not have been privy all of Clark's past memories, his most recent memories (like him using his superspeed to zip over and save Lois) had to have been seen by Kane.


Chloe is no fool, and I think she was pretty certain about what Sebastian knew. Even if she wasn't, she simply was not willing to entertain the possibility of this guy coming back to haunt Clark. So, she killed him. With Chloe being one of Clark's strongest supporters, I think she would have done the same thing even without the extra ruthlessness Brainiac lent to her character. Brainiac had to have Chloe taken back to the FOS by Doomsday in order to assume control of her, so I have to believe that up to that point Chloe had free will. She may have had Brainiac induced power, but she made a conscious choice to use it.


The fact that Chloe looks completely stunned as she walks out of that hospital room only confirms the fact that she made a choice to kill. As in: "I can't believe I just did that". Brainiac may have hardened Chloe, but ultimately the choice was hers.

[Diego*Chloe]

It's called an opinion, a belief. Everyone is entitled to their own, get over it.


But you make it sound like your opinion is a fact and its not.

[CarissaJoi]

The point is, it doesn't matter so much if Chloe knows or not. Many times the audience is given the information before the character is. And this is one of the times. Chloe may have been confused, but some of us aren't.

It's obvious that Chloe would go to extreme measures to protect that secret, and it's obvious that she knew about the murder. It's also obvious that Chloe premeditated the murder, and it's obvious that Chloe lied to Oliver when she so weakly said "that was brainIAC, not me." That is more than enough evidence to prove her guilt. Guilt, exactly what Chloe was feeling after leaving Sebastian's room, the same guilt she felt when Oliver called her out on the murder. Chloe is, without a doubt, guilty of Sebastian's murder.


Right on. Chloe knew what she was going to do the minute she decided to go that hospital.

[targis]

But if Chloe told Clark that it was Brainic's influence that led her to killing Sebestian would he let her walk

[CarissaJoi]

But if Chloe told Clark that it was Brainic's influence that led her to killing Sebestian would he let her walk


If Clark wasn't willing to turn Lionel Luthor in for the murder of Oliver's parents, not to mention countless others, I really don't see him turning his best friend in. Clark isn't a fool though, I think he would realize that there is more behind that flimsy excuse. But, ultimately I don't see him doing anything other than being disappointed, angry, and probably feeling that if Chloe wasn't trying to protect his secret she wouldn't have murdered Kane in the first place. Classic Clark.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Because the issue is of responsibility about Sebastian's death, not of any other actions Chloe took whilst under Brainiac's influence. The debate is: is Chloe responsible or not?

I used the RedK as a comparison to prove that she was not.

well chloe is responsible she walked into the room with the intention of finding out what sebastian knew and took action to stop him exposing clark, brainiac doesnt care about clark so its pointless trying to blame brainiac for sebastians death

but we will never agree on this topic so its better to agree to disagree

[tj_powers]

Why don't I even remember who this Sebastian is or why is even relevant to the story? lol I didn't miss an episode but I think wether Chloe killed him or not will this affect the future of her character?

[unfocused]

Let's analize Chloe's statement, "That was BrainIAC, not me."

Chloe averted her eyes when she said "that was BrainIAC, not me." She literally looked away from Olivers eyes to say that. A common habbit of a lie is for a person to avoid eye contact when lying. It's difficult to lie to a persons face, even more so to lie to them while looking into their eyes. This is where the "look me in the eyes and tell me..." demand comes from. Generally honest people have this habbit, and Chloe is one of them.

As soon as Oliver says the name "Sebastian Kane," Chloe's demeanor changes extremely and quickly to guilt ridden and scared. She already knew what Oliver was going to say, and she already knew how she felt about that situation.

Had Chloe been innocent of the murder, she would have fought back harder against Oliver's accusations. Instead, she gave in rather quickly. Chloe knew of the murder, yet after so long after the murder she still had no strong argument that it wasn't her. The reason is because there is no argument against it, she committed murder and not even she has an excuse for it.

Chloe was not confused about whether BrainAIC controlled or influenced her. A confused person wouldn't have been able to answer so quickly. When Oliver accused her of murder, she retorted with no hesitation. She wasn't confused, she was lying. She had months to ponder the murder, why would she still be confused about it? If she knew that BrainIAC took control or influenced her, she would have had a better argument given the time she had to think about the murder. Yet, her only argument was "that was BrainIAC, not me." She didn't look confused, she looked guilty and surprised. Surprised that she actually didn't get away with it. And now that she was backed into a corner, all she had left was denial. Denial, but nothing else. So she gives in, and decides to keep Oliver's murder a secret so, in turn, he would keep her murder a secret.

And that's Chloe's confirmation that she murdered Sebastian with her own free will.


Chloe consciously tapped into her abilites from Brainiac. I don't know if she was prepared for how powerful those abilities were, but she told Clark: "Im choosing to look at this as a gift". So, we have to infer that whatever abilities arose from her Brainiac "infection", she was going to use to help aid Clark. We can say that Brainiac lent a little extra ruthlessness to Chloe's character, but ultimately the choice to dispose of Sebastian was hers. She consciously tapped into her Brainiac enabled abilities to kill him. Just as she consciously tapped into those abilities to bail Clark out of the Phantom Zone and hack computers.
Good point. Chloe's whole intent these past 4+ years has been to help and protect Clark. It's understandable that given the right, or wrong, powers, she would eventually murder for him to.


Chloe knew what she was going to do when she walked into that hospital. While I do agree that we don't know exactly how much information Kane gleaned from Clark, if we use the scenes where he pilfered memories from Tess and Lois as an example---at the very least, Kane was able to relive the last few minutes of his hosts memories. Which means that while Kane may not have been privy all of Clark's past memories, his most recent memories (like him using his superspeed to zip over and save Lois) had to have been seen by Kane.
Great catch, I forgot about that. It does take Sebastian a certain period of time to read a certain amount of a persons history. So basically all he saw from Clark, with that quick touch, was him using his speed and strength. This makes sense, because Sebastian was looking to turn his life around, and all he saw from Clark was dangerous speed and dangerous strength. Had he touched Clark for a longer period, he would have seen the good he does and all his heroic adventures in Metropolis he's been doing lately as the Red Blue Blur. And for a man that is turning his life around, he wouldn't have seen Clark as someone that belongs in Black Creek. But he did, and with only a quick touch.


So Sebastian wasn't much of a threat at all. And Chloe didn't know exactly how much of a threat he was. Had she known that Sebastian didn't know much beyond the possibility that Clark was a meteor freak, she wouldn't have killed him. Why? Because Chloe was making her own choices, not BrainIAC. The fact that Chloe went to Sebastian to ask him how much he knew, proves that she wasn't going to kill him if he had only a little information about Clark. But since he had "enough" information on Clark, she killed him. BrainIAC wouldn't even have asked Sebastian any questions, he would have killed him immediately, lol.


Chloe is no fool, and I think she was pretty certain about what Sebastian knew. Even if she wasn't, she simply was not willing to entertain the possibility of this guy coming back to haunt Clark. So, she killed him. With Chloe being one of Clark's strongest supporters, I think she would have done the same thing even without the extra ruthlessness Brainiac lent to her character. Brainiac had to have Chloe taken back to the FOS by Doomsday in order to assume control of her, so I have to believe that up to that point Chloe had free will. She may have had Brainiac induced power, but she made a conscious choice to use it.
I really like this take on the situation, always have. Really good post.


But, ultimately I don't see him doing anything other than being disappointed, angry, and probably feeling that if Chloe wasn't trying to protect his secret she wouldn't have murdered Kane in the first place. Classic Clark.
That's an excellent way to put it. And it fits in perfectly with this seasons theme of secret identities and who Clark should let in on the secret, and the fact that the secret is dangerous.

[Bizarrolover]

Originally Posted by CarissaJoi http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4485999#post4485999)
But, ultimately I don't see him doing anything other than being disappointed, angry, and probably feeling that if Chloe wasn't trying to protect his secret she wouldn't have murdered Kane in the first place. Classic Clark.


Like James said, excellent way to put it. Though this is a bit off topic, in one way, this post illustrates the reason why Clark erased Chloe's memories in Abyss. Clark would never want Chloe (or anyone else) in the position of killing someone to protect his secret.

[unfocused]

Yup, and the fact that she was going to ask Sebastian how much he knew so she could determine whether to kill him or not, proves Chloe had free will during that time. And she used her free will to murder Sebastian.


Thing is, for once JAMES, i agree with your opinion :lol:

I do think that the way Chloe said it suggested guilt, and that she knew what she was saying wasn't true.

What i don't understand is the logic behind it. Because, yes, it would make Clark safer, but Chloe has been shown to be a rational person thus far, and a rational person would need much more of an actual threat than simply the fact he knew, in order to kill him.

It seems to be a defect of a writing change. Maybe the threat of another strike caused them to write multiple story arcs for different stories. Sebastian living with no memories of his past seems to have been an alternate story that was scrapped. I can also imagine Kristin's arc interfering with other story arcs with it's 5 episodes. Not to mention the overload of story we have this season, from the "Injustice" group, to Doomsday, to the secret identity, all the way to Clois. Geez, Kristin's story arc really did mess up the Clois storyline this time...


Brainiac needs Clark around so Doomsday can kill him, that's why he didn't want Clark left in the Phantom Zone.
Why do people keep saying BrainIAC needed Clark for this or that? BrainIAC had Doomsday, and he was confident Doomsday could pummel Clark. He even used Doomsday to bring Chloe to him after he pummeled Clark. BrainIAC needed Clark to rebuild the Fortress, but why would he need Clark after that? There would be no reason he would need Clark, and killing Sebastian would only remove an obstacle for Clark. And BrainIAC had no interest in that.

[unfocused]

Thanks, Belen. That storyline really needs to come up again, soon. Clark needs that verbal lashing, and Chloe needs hers. They both did bad things they thought were for the greater good. But Chloe's deed brings to light the reasons for Clark's deed. And I may even go so far as to say her deed justifies his deed.

People can complain about the writing all day long, but I stand by my words when I say this season has been excellently written, and this is one of the many reasons why ;)

[actaeon]

Chloe took off her gloves and said "The mind is simply a highly sophisticated computer. Download too much information and it crashes and all the data is lost."

Sebastian: "What's that supposed to mean?"

Chloe: "Here, let me show you."

She grabbed his wrist. He started moaning in pain. It's like data was swirling in his eyes and then his eyes went dark and then just stared blankly and unresponsive. His medical monitor started beeping wildly and then doctors and nurses started shouting things like "code blue!" "He's having a stroke" "It's cardiac"

My impression from Chloe's dialogue is that she overloaded his mind till it crashed, she didn't erase his memories. My impression OTOH is that erasing his memories is precisely what Chloe was going for. The point of doing what she did, in her own words, is that "the data is lost." Killing him-- if kill him she did-- was incidental.

Actually, I was very surprised when Ollie announced that Sebastian was in fact dead. I thought the whole point of showing doctors and nurses rush in to his room with a crash cart was to open up the very real possibility that Sebastian revived. That's what usually happens in hospital dramas-- the guy flatlines, they break out the paddles, shouts of "clear!" and "live dammit live! Clear!" They even had Chloe do it once, to Jimmy, in an ambulance.

So maybe Sebastian isn't dead after all.... Let's not forget that Chloe "died" once in the hospital, and she's still around.

[Khyla]

Thanks, Belen. That storyline really needs to come up again, soon. Clark needs that verbal lashing, and Chloe needs hers. They both did bad things they thought were for the greater good. But Chloe's deed brings to light the reasons for Clark's deed. And I may even go so far as to say her deed justifies his deed.

People can complain about the writing all day long, but I stand by my words when I say this season has been excellently written, and this is one of the many reasons why ;)
i agree.

And wow! an excellent way to put it! (see my bold)
And a great way for Chlark to argue it. Only thing is, Clark must realize by now what great danger he put her into by having her completely naive about Brainiac and totally vulnerable and no longer knowing he would have her back if needed. So it is a troubling dilemma for both of them.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Clark must realize by now what great danger he put her into by having her completely naive about Brainiac and totally vulnerable and no longer knowing he would have her back if needed. So it is a troubling dilemma for both of them.

the danger he put her into im sorry where you getting this from? im fairly certain that clark warned chloe about brainiac in "toxic" its not clarks fault that chloe ignored clark and decided to see brainiac as a gift and not a curse

[CarissaJoi]

People can complain about the writing all day long, but I stand by my words when I say this season has been excellently written, and this is one of the many reasons why ;)




James, I think we are pretty much in accord when it comes to Chloe and her motivations behind Kane's murder. Very well done, and thanks for the compliment. I also believe that this season has been excellently written. Even though the show has had a lot of changes, I really think the writing is top notch. It always gets more interesting when you begin to explore the innermost workings of a person, why we keep the secrets we do, and what happens when we realize that morality is not a black and white concept. And that's exactly what this episode did.

[DigitalKing]

Let's analize Chloe's statement, "That was BrainIAC, not me."Yes, by all means, let's.



Chloe averted her eyes when she said "that was BrainIAC, not me." She literally looked away from Olivers eyes to say that. A common habbit of a lie is for a person to avoid eye contact when lying. It's difficult to lie to a persons face, even more so to lie to them while looking into their eyes. This is where the "look me in the eyes and tell me..." demand comes from. Generally honest people have this habbit, and Chloe is one of them.

So Chloe's okay with killing but not lying? Before you say "She isn't which is why she looked odd" let's remember that according to your model, she went through with it, and not only that, she premeditated it. Further, if we're going to look at speech patterns and common habits, let's compare her statements/cadence to those of Brainiac in S5.

Also, where the heck was her difficulty when she moved away from her then-fiance to stand next to Clark and lie like a rug? That, prior to her chat with Oliver, was her lowest point this season, to me.


As soon as Oliver says the name "Sebastian Kane," Chloe's demeanor changes extremely and quickly to guilt ridden and scared. She already knew what Oliver was going to say, and she already knew how she felt about that situation.

What would you expect from someone like Chloe, who manifested an empathic healing power as a geologically-enhanced individual, after being used in such a manner? Do you think she wouldn't feel remorse over the situation? I honestly don't.

On a related note: why didn't Chloe get worried when Clark told her he couldn't believe she would do X (which ended up being about her chat with Lana at Isis)? Shouldn't she have assumed he was talking about the murder? Or would she have to be prodded with an actual name?


Had Chloe been innocent of the murder, she would have fought back harder against Oliver's accusations. Instead, she gave in rather quickly. Chloe knew of the murder, yet after so long after the murder she still had no strong argument that it wasn't her. The reason is because there is no argument against it, she committed murder and not even she has an excuse for it.

So...what you're saying is that she committed murder but has no excuse for it, despite knowing that it's wrong, against the law, and probably (and it was) recorded? Was she planning on getting caught then? Because it'd be pretty moronic to premeditate murder and then have no alibi/excuse. Hey, this just took me five seconds: in Committed the jeweler zapped her with electricity, making Brainiac slightly stronger, and he used that juice to assert enough control to snuff out Sebastian. Chloe may have gone there on her own to question, maybe even intimidate him, but the killing was Brainiac. Thus, we have her position voiced as recently as Plastique (we don't kill) contrasted with her position in Identity.

Also, are you saying you honestly wouldn't have accused her of lying because she was protesting too much, had she fought back harder? You already said "It was Brainiac = The devil made me do it = lame excuse" so I have no reason to see you as anything other than highly biased. So look me in the eye and say you wouldn't accuse this. (for the unobservant: that was tongue-in-cheek)


Chloe was not confused about whether BrainAIC controlled or influenced her. A confused person wouldn't have been able to answer so quickly. When Oliver accused her of murder, she retorted with no hesitation. She wasn't confused, she was lying. She had months to ponder the murder, why would she still be confused about it? If she knew that BrainIAC took control or influenced her, she would have had a better argument given the time she had to think about the murder. Yet, her only argument was "that was BrainIAC, not me." She didn't look confused, she looked guilty and surprised. Surprised that she actually didn't get away with it. And now that she was backed into a corner, all she had left was denial. Denial, but nothing else. So she gives in, and decides to keep Oliver's murder a secret so, in turn, he would keep her murder a secret.

What else did she need to say? If Brainiac was controlling her, what more should there have been to her argument? Should the lady have protested too much, so that you could count that against her as well? And could someone please tell me how Brainiac could have gotten to the fortress to infect it without Clark? If Sebastian had exposed him, what would Brainiac have done? Would he have taken Chloe there himself, arousing suspicion, and then getting frozen out by Jor-El?

If you presuppose that Chloe is a killer, then anything will be considered in support of that "fact." Chloe was unsure of herself, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe denies her involvement and blames Brainiac, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe protests too little, therefore she is guilty of murder. Had it been different, it would have been: Chloe denied her involvement vehemently, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe protests too much, therefore she is guilty of murder.

If Chloe doesn't confess to this, fanwank all you want. If she does, it's just as much a light-switch as everything else this season; it's character derailment and you know it. (We can't get KK back, so we'll just have Chloe go dark and have boys chase her around, it'll be like Lana never left! Wrath? What's that? Traveler? Are these episodes of Smallville or something? Plastique? Stop shouting out random words.)

Thus, come March, if Chloe gives Clark some "I did what I had to do" speech that sounds better coming from Lionel Luthor, I will admit I was wrong--about the murder. Further, it will solidify this season as a retcon of massive proportions, given that Clark is proactive rather than mopey, Lana is heroic rather than a felon, Lois is pining and getting raises rather than being brash and ineffective, Oliver is murdering people instead of being a hero, Jimmy is devoted and insightful instead of a playa-pimp juggling hot blondes, and Chloe is a mix of a Stepford Wife and Lana instead of an investigative reporter and Google.

[unfocused]

Yes, by all means, let's. So Chloe's okay with killing but not lying? Before you say "She isn't which is why she looked odd" let's remember that according to your model, she went through with it, and not only that, she premeditated it. Further, if we're going to look at speech patterns and common habits, let's compare her statements/cadence to those of Brainiac in S5.

Also, where the heck was her difficulty when she moved away from her then-fiance to stand next to Clark and lie like a rug? That, prior to her chat with Oliver, was her lowest point this season, to me.
So looking away from a persons eyes when talking to them means nothing? Psychotherapists across the world are laughing right now.

Or maybe you think it's easier to tell the truth to a persons chin :lol:


What would you expect from someone like Chloe, who manifested an empathic healing power as a geologically-enhanced individual, after being used in such a manner? Do you think she wouldn't feel remorse over the situation? I honestly don't.
What I'd expect from a person like Chloe is exactly what she did. Get nervous, look guilty, and come up with a quick, yet weak lie that provided absolutely no foundation for her to continue an argument.


So...what you're saying is that she committed murder but has no excuse for it, despite knowing that it's wrong, against the law, and probably (and it was) recorded? Was she planning on getting caught then? Because it'd be pretty moronic to premeditate murder and then have no alibi/excuse. Hey, this just took me five seconds: in Committed the jeweler zapped her with electricity, making Brainiac slightly stronger, and he used that juice to assert enough control to snuff out Sebastian. Chloe may have gone there on her own to question, maybe even intimidate him, but the killing was Brainiac. Thus, we have her position voiced as recently as Plastique (we don't kill) contrasted with her position in Identity.
So what you're saying is Chloe didn't commit the murder yet still had no excuse or alibi? Funny, because people with no excuse or alibi tend to be guilty, not innocent. Unless this is Bizarro world. Wait, am I in Bizarro world again?

Also, I liked that bit about the jeweler and the electricity. Making up stuff is fun. :rolleyes:


Also, are you saying you honestly wouldn't have accused her of lying because she was protesting too much, had she fought back harder? You already said "It was Brainiac = The devil made me do it = lame excuse" so I have no reason to see you as anything other than highly biased. So look me in the eye and say you wouldn't accuse this. (for the unobservant: that was tongue-in-cheek)

What else did she need to say? If Brainiac was controlling her, what more should there have been to her argument? Should the lady have protested too much, so that you could count that against her as well? And could someone please tell me how Brainiac could have gotten to the fortress to infect it without Clark? If Sebastian had exposed him, what would Brainiac have done? Would he have taken Chloe there himself, arousing suspicion, and then getting frozen out by Jor-El?
Chloe had no argument to begin with. She had a sinlge line, 5 words. That's it. Oliver replied with more accusations that she continued failing to deny. And why would aroused suspicions from others stop BrainIAC from influencing Chloe to go to the Fortress herself? She could have just gotten up and left, no questions asked. If BrainIAC influenced Chloe to commit murder, how hard would it be for him to influence her to commit roadtrip? And by the time questions began being asked, she'd already be there. Also, I didn't know Jor-El froze people out of the Fortress. Jor-El himself didn't even know Chloe was freezing to death in the Fortress in Arrival. Jor-El usually wakes up when Clark enters. He isn't there greeting or banning people that stumble into the Fortress. Just as Lex waltzed right in with the intent to destroy it, Chloe could have to.


And just to let you know, BrainIAC did get Chloe to the Fortress without Clark.


If you presuppose that Chloe is a killer, then anything will be considered in support of that "fact." Chloe was unsure of herself, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe denies her involvement and blames Brainiac, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe protests too little, therefore she is guilty of murder. Had it been different, it would have been: Chloe denied her involvement vehemently, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe protests too much, therefore she is guilty of murder.

Assumptions aren't healthy for you. I never "presupposed" anything. I simply took the facts and concluded a result from them. Chloe is strong willed, if she believed she did not commit that murder, she would have fought back. If Chloe believes she did commit that murder, she would have gave up. So, tell me, what did Chloe do? Did she continue to fight Oliver on the issue, or did she give up?

By the way, you're using the term "fanwank" wrong ;)

[DigitalKing]

Was planning on doing a more barebones post tonight, then I got sucked in more. I'll post my cohesive thoughts on the issue tomorrow though. I'm hoping this makes more sense tomorrow.

Looking away means significantly less than what you're implying. Upon watching the clip, they don't even dwell on Chloe's actions, it's all about Lex's death, which is what Oliver grills Chloe on and what Chloe has a hard time with condemning. She barely looks away anyway. You seem to be misremembering the scene with more prodding from Oliver and more uncertainty from Chloe. I'd only watched the episode once, so I couldn't remember enough to dispute your claims.

Re: innocence vs. alibis - People who are innocent tend not to have exceedingly good alibis, because they don't think that they would need one if they've done nothing wrong.

If someone was murdered tonight near your house, and you were at your computer playing World of Warcraft or something, after which you went to get some chocolate milk and studied electron physics for a couple hours, if you were questioned, would you say you were playing computer games and studying, or would you say you were playing WoW with X character, drinking Yoo-Hoo and then studying electron physics from your textbook and online interactive notes for approximately 2 hours and 45 minutes? The latter is more suspicious than the former; it sounds practiced and thus less credible.

Let's say the lame scenario I threw together with the jeweler actually was the case, and Chloe was made aware of it. If she had recounted that scenario to Oliver, do you think he would have responded much differently from how you did, with a roll of the eyes and sarcasm about Bizarro World? She said the only thing that a) she could say and b) she needed to say. Who is Oliver to press further, considering he's a brazen murderer? And as I said before, Oliver pretty much drops it after one sentence about it being natural to want to protect Clark and how Chloe is probably relieved to know that the deed has been done. Notice how he changes tack when the attempt at recrimination doesn't work as well as he had intended it to. It's no longer "You can't call me out, you did the same thing" but rather "You can't call me out, it had to be done and you know it."

Chloe hasn't been strong-willed since S6 (See Black Hole of Chimmy). And I guess she didn't get that memo about Jor-El not freezing people, considering that she warned Kara to gtfo if the weather started changing when they went there together in Traveler (not to mention when he froze Clark in a block of ice as well). Jor-El's suspicion is the only real factor I'm referencing here.

Re: Brainiac in the fortress without Clark - I hope you're not talking about when Davis brought Chloe there, because it's evident that Brainiac was preparing the Fortress to house Davis as a cocoon. So he had to do random crap to it before Davis came.

If I'm using fanwank wrong, then what I meant was that if she doesn't confess, you can come up with your own theories as to why in order to fill in that perceived hole. I thought that was the meaning of fanwank.

Way too tired to shape this; it's probably more than a little bumpy.