So Chloe did kill sebastian w/o BrainIAC's influence

[unfocused]

While I wait for you to "shape" out your post, I'll just casually reply, for now. Oliver didn't drop the accusations that Chloe murdered Sebastian. He simply built on it and played on her emotions. Adding her apparent reasons for that murder (which were for the greater good, protecting Clark) was not him "dropping" the subject, but him furthering his point. Which Chloe ultimately agreed with and accepted by keeping his murder a secret so he could do the same for her.

I didn't know BrainIAC had to do random crap to the Fortress to prepare it for Doomsday. Where did you hear this bit of information? All I saw BrainIAC do was infect the Fortress, turning it black, as he took control of it. Do you and Kyle Shmid have the same source of info? Anyway, if Chloe and Lex can wander into the Fortress without Jor-El stopping them, then I doubt Doomsday would have any problems doing it to.

Your comments about alibis don't make sense. To prove Chloe is innocent, she needs a weak alibi? Lol no, that's not how it works. Again, in a court of law, Chloe would be damned if she came without an alibi or excuse. Oliver may not be a judge or jury, but Chloe should have at least had a decently stable case for herself, if she was innocent.

And fanwanking would be anxiously filling in plotholes. I'm simply gathering conclusions from the facts that are given. Example of fanwanking:

Hey, this just took me five seconds: in Committed the jeweler zapped her with electricity, making Brainiac slightly stronger, and he used that juice to assert enough control to snuff out Sebastian. Chloe may have gone there on her own to question, maybe even intimidate him, but the killing was Brainiac.

[Mars Investigations]

While I do agree that Brainiac definitely made Chloe more ruthless, I don't know if you can really place the blame for Sebastian Kane's murder entirely upon Brainiac's influence. If anything, Sebastian would have been useful to Brainiac because HE could cause enough problems for Clark by outing him that it would keep Clark out of the way. But, I honestly don't think Brainiac cared if this guy lived or died.

Once again, I'm not saying that Brainiac ever cared about Sebastian, dead or alive. But Chloe did, and that motivation to protect Clark was enhanced into a willingness to murder by Brainiac's dark influence. So I'm saying that Brainiac never made a choice, he didn't make a decision, he didn't want to kill Sebastian, and he couldn't have forced Chloe to do so at that point anyway because he never gained full control of her until "Legion". Basically, Brainiac's evil nature 'rubbed off' on Chloe.


Chloe consciously tapped into her abilites from Brainiac. I don't know if she was prepared for how powerful those abilities were, but she told Clark: "Im choosing to look at this as a gift". So, we have to infer that whatever abilities arose from her Brainiac "infection", she was going to use to help aid Clark. We can say that Brainiac lent a little extra ruthlessness to Chloe's character, but ultimately the choice to dispose of Sebastian was hers. She consciously tapped into her Brainiac enabled abilities to kill him. Just as she consciously tapped into those abilities to bail Clark out of the Phantom Zone and hack computers.

The only ability she consciously tapped into, and the only ability she referred to as a gift, was her amplified intelligence. Up until she used superstrength and and hacked into the crystal, it's clear that she knew nothing about abilities she possessed because of Brainiac other than her brainpower. She definitely intended to use that brainpower to aid Clark, but it's obvious that she didn't consciously tap into the crystal (not in the way she did) and superstrength in "Bloodline" - it just happened. She went virtually catatonic, her eyes glowed, she swatted Oliver aside...none of this suggests any kind of conscious involvement on her part.

Do you really think she stood there and thought, "Right, let's see if I have superstrength in case Ollie interrupts" or "Right, let's use Brainiac's ruthlessness to help me kill this guy"?

I doubt it.


Chloe knew what she was going to do when she walked into that hospital. While I do agree that we don't know exactly how much information Kane gleaned from Clark, if we use the scenes where he pilfered memories from Tess and Lois as an example---at the very least, Kane was able to relive the last few minutes of his hosts memories. Which means that while Kane may not have been privy all of Clark's past memories, his most recent memories (like him using his superspeed to zip over and save Lois) had to have been seen by Kane.

I agree that Chloe knew she was going to kill him, but only because of the dark side that was lurking beneath the surface. She didn't want to, but her darker instincts drove her to the hospital. She was helpless to resist them. She went to see how much he knew, but part of her wanted him gone - and it was that part that Brainiac's ruthlessness (again, not Brainiac himself, just an aspect of his being) played upon to and influenced to cause the death of Sebastian. You can visibly see the pain on her face when he tells her what he knows, because she's all too aware of what she's about to give into.

As for how much Sebastian knew: "Let's just say he shouldn't have touched me. Guys like him belong in places like Black Creek."

So he knew enough. And that is even more dangerous when he's connected to Tess.


Chloe is no fool, and I think she was pretty certain about what Sebastian knew. Even if she wasn't, she simply was not willing to entertain the possibility of this guy coming back to haunt Clark. So, she killed him. With Chloe being one of Clark's strongest supporters, I think she would have done the same thing even without the extra ruthlessness Brainiac lent to her character. Brainiac had to have Chloe taken back to the FOS by Doomsday in order to assume control of her, so I have to believe that up to that point Chloe had free will. She may have had Brainiac induced power, but she made a conscious choice to use it.

The action, IMO, was almost entirely attributed to Brainiac's ruthlessness, which drew upon Chloe's motivation to protect Clark. All of the evidence I've seen points to this. She obviously did not have complete free will, and was obviously being influenced by something dark, evil. You can tell this from her expressions throughout the season, from her ability to identify and sympathise with Davis as he talks about his blackouts.


The fact that Chloe looks completely stunned as she walks out of that hospital room only confirms the fact that she made a choice to kill. As in: "I can't believe I just did that". Brainiac may have hardened Chloe, but ultimately the choice was hers.

The stunned look on Chloe's face is definitely: "I can't believe I just did that". Why? Because at any other time, she never would have done that. But she did then because of Brainiac's influence, and she's scared at how much sway he has over her.


well chloe is responsible she walked into the room with the intention of finding out what sebastian knew and took action to stop him exposing clark, brainiac doesnt care about clark so its pointless trying to blame brainiac for sebastians death

but we will never agree on this topic so its better to agree to disagree

I agree, but it frustrates me because you're not reading what I'm saying - I never said that Brainiac wanted Sebastian dead. That's the opposite of what I've been saying.

[unfocused]

If Chloe thought BrainIAC had enough sway over her decisions to make her kill a man, why would she not try to remove BrainIAC? The fact that she chose to view her BrainIAC infection as a gift, tells me she doesn't believe BrainIAC influenced her to kill. If Chloe had thought BrainIAC was capable of making her murder people, she'd definitely not view it as a gift, she'd try to find a way to remove it. And if she couldn't find a way, she'd at least be at odds with the infection. Yet, she continued to view it as a gift and used it to help others when she could.

[unfocused]

Chloe knew Sebastian was dead. Oliver confirmed it when he said those words aloud. Chloe confirmed it when she didn't ask "are you sure he's dead? I only meant to make him lose all the memories he's ever had."

So, yeah, Sebastian's dead.

[Mars Investigations]

If Chloe thought BrainIAC had enough sway over her decisions to make her kill a man, why would she not try to remove BrainIAC? The fact that she chose to view her BrainIAC infection as a gift, tells me she doesn't believe BrainIAC influenced her to kill. If Chloe had thought BrainIAC was capable of making her murder people, she'd definitely not view it as a gift, she'd try to find a way to remove it. And if she couldn't find a way, she'd at least be at odds with the infection. Yet, she continued to view it as a gift and used it to help others when she could.

There are several reasons why she didn't try to remove it:

Because she could still use those gifts to help people.
Because she wasn't entirely sure how she'd ended up killing Sebastian, e.g. how much of it was her and how much of it was Brainiac's influence - hence her hesitance in denying it to Oliver.
Because she could be held accountable for the murder, disappointing Clark and everyone that trusted/loved her.
Because she didn't realise exactly how great Brainiac's influence was becoming.
I think the implication is clear from everything we've seen so far that it wasn't all Chloe, but that at the same time, it wasn't all Brainiac either. There's a middle ground here. Do you really think Chloe, without Brainiac's influence, would be a killer? If you do, then I wonder if you've been watching a different show these past seven seasons.

[unfocused]

If Chloe was so against murder, the reasons you listed wouldn't stop her from trying to remove the infection. Actually, Chloe isn't against murder as much as you would think. She accepted Oliver's murder because she thought it was for a greater good, she even tried talking Clark into killing Lex last season. She shrugged off Lynda Lake's supposed death as if it didn't even bother her. Why? Because these people are bad and the world is safer without them.

And that sucks for Sebastian.

[Krypton_Vessel]

This may have been mentioned 1453211441592 times but here it goes

Chloe could not do it without BrainIAC. She would be one step away, but BrainIAC pushed her over the edge. As simple as that.

[unfocused]

Oh good, you've convinced me.


Killing for the greater good is a horrendous thought, IMO. If killing isn't legal and is immoral, then it should be considered as such in every situation. Otherwise who kills for that purpose isn't any better than the one being killed.
There are other means to stop dangerous people... but maybe that's just me being raised in a country where the capital punishment isn't applied.
Anyway... Chloe did kill, IMO... and for the greater good or not, she shouldn't be able to sleep well at night. She took a human's life and no one has the right to do that. Unfortunately she seems to be sleeping without any problems and that just makes me despise her every day more.

It's a moral gray area that many of us battle with. I would hate to believe murder is ever justifiable, but I would also hate to believe that people like Hitler, Hussein, even Bundy, deserve to live.

For me, there is always comfort in believing the most purist moral path would be to never condone murder. Especially premeditated murder.

[Khyla]

...

If you presuppose that Chloe is a killer, then anything will be considered in support of that "fact." Chloe was unsure of herself, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe denies her involvement and blames Brainiac, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe protests too little, therefore she is guilty of murder. Had it been different, it would have been: Chloe denied her involvement vehemently, therefore she is guilty of murder. Chloe protests too much, therefore she is guilty of murder.
i think you've pretty much hit on it.

...
If she does [confess to this], it's just as much a light-switch as everything else this season; it's character derailment and you know it. (We can't get KK back, so we'll just have Chloe go dark and have boys chase her around, it'll be like Lana never left! Wrath? What's that? Traveler? Are these episodes of Smallville or something? Plastique? Stop shouting out random words.)

Thus, come March, if Chloe gives Clark some "I did what I had to do" speech that sounds better coming from Lionel Luthor, I will admit I was wrong--about the murder. Further, it will solidify this season as a retcon of massive proportions, given that Clark is proactive rather than mopey, Lana is heroic rather than a felon, Lois is pining and getting raises rather than being brash and ineffective, Oliver is murdering people instead of being a hero, Jimmy is devoted and insightful instead of a playa-pimp juggling hot blondes, and Chloe is a mix of a Stepford Wife and Lana instead of an investigative reporter and Google.
great post! :)



...I think the implication is clear from everything we've seen so far that it wasn't all Chloe, but that at the same time, it wasn't all Brainiac either. There's a middle ground here. Do you really think Chloe, without Brainiac's influence, would be a killer? If you do, then I wonder if you've been watching a different show these past seven seasons.
Exactly! Many of us, including myself, have come to this same obvious and most reasonable conclusion, and have said so in our posts.

This may have been mentioned 1453211441592 times but here it goes

Chloe could not do it without BrainIAC. She would be one step away, but BrainIAC pushed her over the edge. As simple as that.
Like I said....^^ :)




If Chloe was so against murder, the reasons you listed wouldn't stop her from trying to remove the infection.
And just how was she supposed to "remove the infection"? --and why would Brainiac permit it, until he was ready? Chloe said herself that the reason she didn't come running to Clark for help was because she knew he would 'do something foolish like use the unstable, unpredictable crystal to try and recreate the FOS and perhaps cause more harm than good, and might even harm himself in the process.'

On top of all this, the writers have made it a very fudged line this season between which of her thoughts, words and actions were Chloe-motivated and which were Brainiac-motivated.


================================================== ===



Clark must realize by now what great danger he put her into by having her completely naive about Brainiac and totally vulnerable and no longer knowing he would have her back if needed. So it is a troubling dilemma for both of them.
the danger he put her into im sorry where you getting this from? im fairly certain that clark warned chloe about brainiac in "toxic" its not clarks fault that chloe ignored clark and decided to see brainiac as a gift and not a curse

uh, I guess I didn't word it clearly enough? I was agreeing with unfocused here where he said:

"[CHloe and Clark] both did bad things they thought were for the greater good. But Chloe's deed brings to light the reasons for Clark's deed. And I may even go so far as to say her deed justifies his deed."

Clark's "deed" was disallowing the restoration of Chloe's knowledge about his abilities and everything connected to them. But this put her in greater danger than she had previously been in because now she no longer knew Clark had the power to help her in dire situations, thus leaving her even more vulnerable and naive to anything relating to Clark, and being completely oblivious of Brainiac might allow it more complete control over her.

So when Chloe and Clark 'have it out' over their "deeds", they will have some good points to ponder and argue on both their sides.

[unfocused]

And just how was she supposed to "remove the infection"?

We would never know, because she didn't try to find a way.

Chloe seemed fine with the murder. She seemed to totally forget about it. Which brings me to believe that she did it. Had BrainIAC committed that murder, she would be bothered by it every now and then. But no, the only time she was bothered was as she walked out Sebastian's room, and when she finds out that Oliver knows of the murder.

Chloe refused Clark's help to find a cure. She not only refused to allow him to use the crystal, she completely refused any help he offered. Her excuse was that it may backfire and harm Clark. But if she really believed that BrainIAC was able to get her to murder, she'd have to consider Clark would be one of her targets if BrainIAC ever decided to orchestrate another murder. This would be more than enough incentive for Chloe to attempt to find a cure, if we're going to assume Chloe really did care about Clark's safety.

So she didn't know where to look for a cure, but that doesn't make it alright to not look for a cure.

[Bizarrolover]

The only ability she consciously tapped into, and the only ability she referred to as a gift, was her amplified intelligence. Up until she used superstrength and and hacked into the crystal, it's clear that she knew nothing about abilities she possessed because of Brainiac other than her brainpower. She definitely intended to use that brainpower to aid Clark, but it's obvious that she didn't consciously tap into the crystal (not in the way she did) and superstrength in "Bloodline" - it just happened. She went virtually catatonic, her eyes glowed, she swatted Oliver aside...none of this suggests any kind of conscious involvement on her part.

Do you really think she stood there and thought, "Right, let's see if I have superstrength in case Ollie interrupts" or "Right, let's use Brainiac's ruthlessness to help me kill this guy"?

I doubt it.


I'm sorry to disagree, but Chloe knew exactly what she was doing when she hacked Clark's crystal. She asked Oliver to steal the power source for her, put her hand over the crystal and activated it, opening a portal to the Phantom Zone. She also knew that Clark knew his way out of the Pantom Zone, but opened the portal nontheless, almost leaving Kara behind. She even mocked Ollie about not telling him how to shoot his arrows. Maybe she didn't know she would turn catatonic, that she would throw Ollie ten feet away, but she knew that what she was doing was beyond 'super smart'. And I have to say, that she liked being that powerful.

There is a clear progression on how Chloe's mind was slowly corrupted by Braniac's power. First there was just speedreading (toxic), then understanding intergalactic symbols (Instinct) then random amnesia (engagement party at Commited, though they only told us about this in Abyss), then killing a man in Identity, then hacking kryptonian supercomputers and opening cosmic portals (Bloodline). Her infection was getting out of control, she knew this, yet she still chose to think of it as a gift and refused Clark's help. Not once she thought of telling Clark about what was going on because she knew he would try to cure her and it felt good to be this powerful. Even Oliver warned Clark about what was going on with Chloe, but Chloe kept her mouth shut.

I think Chloe was perfectly conscious of her actions during the brainiac infection. The power was corrupting her and making her do things she wouldn't otherwise do, yet she made a conscious decision to keep it and use it, despite how dangerous it was and regardless the consequences.

----- Added 15 Minutes later -----


Clark's "deed" was disallowing the restoration of Chloe's knowledge about his abilities and everything connected to them. But this put her in greater danger than she had previously been in because now she no longer knew Clark had the power to help her in dire situations, thus leaving her even more vulnerable and naive to anything relating to Clark, and being completely oblivious of Brainiac might allow it more complete control over her.

This has a different interpretation. Chloe killed a man trying to protect Clark's secret, so not knowing his secret would never put Chloe in that position again.

Chloe wasn't more vulnerable to Doomsday because of the memory wipe. Doomsday's attack in Bride would have had exactly the same outcome if Chloe had her memories of Clark. She doesn't have super strength of superspeed to defend herself and knowing Clark's secret isn't enough protection when you are being attacked by an alien monster. Had she been aware of Clark's secret in Bride, the only thing she could have done was cry for help and pray that Clark would get there in time. So the memory wipe didn't make her more vulnerable, she's vulnerable just because she's a friend of Clark.

[Var-Zol]

FOR THE LAST TIME: braniac killed sebsastian because he didnt want anyone else to have the chance at killing the last kryptonian!!!!!!!!!!

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

FOR THE LAST TIME: braniac killed sebsastian because he didnt want anyone else to have the chance at killing the last kryptonian!!!!!!!!!!

and for the last time chloe was also infected when she helped oliver, clark and kara, so if its ok to blame brainiac for the sebastian incident then he can be held accountable for the rest!!!!

[Mars Investigations]

I was going to make another post rebuffing the various points, but until this is clarified by the show itself (if it ever is, of course), I think it's all going to come down to a matter of interpretation. So I am bowing out of this thread.

I have enjoyed the debate, though. Lots of intuitive posters on both sides of the fence. :)

[red_sun1938]

I'm going with Chloe killing Sebastian to protect Clark using Brainiac's gifts to help a greater cause. Of course killing for any reason is wrong but just about every major character has killed someone on this show so why is it such a stretch for Chloe? She's not part of the actual mythos outside of this show, she knew she had Brainiac's gifts and used them willingly to help Clark and others before so it's completely plausible for her to use them to stop a pending threat to Clark.

I'm OK with Chloe killing him. Lana has killed before and she gets a pass so what's the big deal with Chloe having blood on her hands too?

[red_sun1938]

I do believe that even without her Brainiac infection Chloe would have still been/would still be pro-killing and no, I haven't been watching a different show. In fact... I've been watching the same show that just a season ago had Chloe advising Clark to kill Lex. Luckily Clark was wiser.

I also believe that it was all Chloe. Because... let's put it this way... everyone that has a car could kill someone with it, but not everyone does. Chloe had a car (BrainIAC) and chose to kill someone using it. BrainIAC provided her the means to kill Sebastian and she chose to use them.


Exactly. Guns don't kill people. People kill people using a gun. I go along with that.

[Mars Investigations]

Again, different opinions. I don't think that Chloe actively chose to kill Sebastian, but that she just did it because of Brainiac's dark instincts and then realized what she'd done. To use your analogy, the gun influenced the finger into pulling the trigger.

But I don't think any of us are going to change anyone else's mind.

[Bizarrolover]

Again, different opinions. I don't think that Chloe actively chose to kill Sebastian, but that she just did it because of Brainiac's dark instincts and then realized what she'd done. To use your analogy, the gun influenced the finger into pulling the trigger.

But I don't think any of us are going to change anyone else's mind.

I'm not trying to change your mind, but I would like to add this. Guns are dangerous, if you don't want to hurt anyone, don't carry them around with you.

And here I speak from experience. My husband owns several guns. He always tries to encourage me to carry one with me. I say no because I don want to be in the position of pulling the trigger and hurting someone.

Chloe had a dangerous power and chose to keep it.

[Mars Investigations]

I'm not trying to change your mind, but I would like to add this this. Guns are dangerous, if you don't want to hurt anyone, don't carry them around with you.

And here I speak from experience. My husband owns several guns. He always tries to encourage me to carry one with me. I say no because I don want to be in the position of pulling the trigger and hurting anyone.

Chloe had a dangerous power and chose to keep it.

1) Chloe was infected with Brainiac. That isn't exactly like picking up a gun.
2) At the point she killed Sebastian, she was only aware of her enhanced intelligence. Can't blame her for wanting to keep that. She also had no idea that Brainiac could/would influence her behaviour.
3) How was she to rid herself of the infection?

[DigitalKing]

SvLL: I can do up a transcript of that Quest scene as well as the Requiem transcript I did below if you want, because Chloe said no such thing. What she said was that Clark would be in a position where he'd have to play God. The closest she comes to endorsing killing Lex is in Vessel when she asks if the only way to stop Zod is to kill the vessel like Jor-El said.

Khyla: Thanks for the props.

Mars: I'd go the same route, but it's much too late for that now.

And Unfocused:

I'm thinking that at this point we're going in circles. First off, I will post the actual dialogue here:

Chloe views image of Oliver holding the bomb toy on screen. Behind her Oliver enters silently.
OQ: Lex deserved to die, Chloe.
CS: (pause) You certainly made sure he got what he deserved. They identified the remains as Lex's.
OQ: What does Clark think?
CS: That Winslow turned on Lex. Pieces of a toy bomb were found in the wreckage.
OQ: (blinking, turning to look at newspaper) Yeah, well, that makes sense. Wouldn't be like Winslow to play a game he can't win.
CS: (indignantly) Are you seriously going to let another man take the blame for something you did?
OQ: (facing Chloe, dropping paper) Chloe, Winslow's already a killer. He blew up all those people at Luthorcorp. He was about ready to take down the entire Daily Planet. (quieter) One more death's not going to make any difference.
CS: Are you listening to yourself? Oliver, you've really crossed a line here.
OQ: (interrupting) Lex is dead. The world is safer because of it. Clark is safe again.
CS: This is murder.
OQ: This is justice.
(Chloe continues to stare at Oliver incredulously)
OQ: Although Clark may not be able to accept that, you know what I did was right.
(Chloe is unsure of herself; Oliver crosses past)
OQ: Please don't stand there and look so innocent. You know, I did a little video viewing of my own. Seems a certain meteor freak named Sebastian Kane (Chloe's expression hardens) died at the hospital. Right after he was visited by somebody who looked an awful lot like you.
CS: (shaking her head) That was Brainiac. Not me.
OQ: Was it? (whispering) Because it seemed like a pretty natural instinct to protect Clark.
(Chloe regards Oliver)
OQ: Now that Lex is gone, you can't tell me you're not relieved.
CS: (looking downward) Every fiber of my conscience wants to say that's not true. But--
OQ: Then you can't tell Clark what I did. Lex just ripped the man's heart out, Chloe. He's going to need his friends around him right now more than ever.
(Oliver leaves, Chloe ponders his words in a state of chagrin)

The conflict was over whether Chloe thought Oliver was wrong to kill Lex. That is what was bothering Chloe's conscience. Had she killed Sebastian, would there have been a problem with her conscience bothering her? No, because she would already believe that killing to protect Clark('s secret; that's not even protecting Clark's life in Chloe's case) was a necessary evil. How would killing some two-bit meteor freak in a hospital bed be okay, but killing Lex, who wants to kill and has tried to kill Clark, and has tortured and killed others, be such a huge unjustifiable thing? Are you trying to say that we should add hypocrisy to the list of traits lightswitched into Chloe this season (villainy, co-dependence, counseling even though she sucks at it)?

Chloe felt guilty about being relieved over Lex's death. She probably also felt guilty about her involvement, however minimal. Oliver didn't say "You keep my secret and I'll keep yours," he said "You know I was right to do this thing even though Clark wouldn't understand."

And the more I think about this, the more it seems ridiculous. Oliver knew Chloe had Brainiac in her head. He experienced her strength firsthand. He knows that Clark has used his powers on countless freaks in Belle Reve. Why would he assume that Chloe was acting of her own free will unless he was looking to try and blackmail her? Further, why would the audience? Did anyone think that Clark was the person who was toying with Chloe in Transference, and that he just happened to decide to call Chloe "Ms. Sullivan"? We knew Lionel was in his body, we knew Lionel calls Chloe that, and we knew Clark wouldn't toy with Chloe like that. So why, when someone we knew was in Chloe's body who compares the power of the brain to the power of a computer decided to kill someone who could get in the way of his Rube Goldberg-style plans, would we blame OOC behavior on Chloe?

In any case, on the subject of alibis, the key is not that they should be weak (and how is "There's an evil computer in my brain" a weak alibi?) but that they should be plausible and present a plausible amount of information. In a trial, of course you present as many facts as possible, because you've been told that you are going to trial and thus you work as hard as you can to clear your name. When you're simply being initially questioned, giving too many details is a red flag, because it means you were thinking about your specific whereabouts before the police told you something had happened. It is implausible that you would remember specific details without being prompted previously. This implies a practiced alibi, which further implies involvement in the crime.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3717/is_200704/ai_n19430491/pg_2

There is a portion about Jennifer Wilbanks in there that pretty much explains what I'm talking about.


On the 911 recording, Wilbanks informed the dispatcher that she had just been freed, and that she was calling from a 7-Eleven. In response to the dispatcher's inquiries, the complainant provided descriptions of her abductors: a Hispanic man with "really bad teeth" and a Caucasian woman who had been driving the van. While sounding tearful and traumatized, she further claimed that her abductors were armed with a handgun. She later elaborated her story to investigators and claimed that her abductors had raped her while listening to Spanish music and cut her hair short before letting her go. Ultimately, Wilbanks confessed that she had fabricated the entire detailed story (CBSNews.com, 2005). As this case exemplifies, in addition to providing a high level of detail, complainants who make a false allegation may attempt to mimic distress and trauma symptoms in order to appear credible.Emphasis is mine.


And fanwanking would be anxiously filling in plotholes.
what I meant was that if she doesn't confess, you can come up with your own theories as to why in order to fill in that perceived hole. I thought that was the meaning of fanwank.So...exactly what I said, and exactly how I used it. What are you on about?

Further, I wasn't trying to fill in a plot-hole with my theory, I was giving an example of something Chloe could have said if she was a killer. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying she could have said that if she was lying.

As it stands, Chloe's most recent stance on killing is that she can't condemn Oliver for killing Lex because she feels relieved that Lex is gone. What more needs to be said?

[Mars Investigations]

Well... until someone can prove me that a machine can have instincts,... I won't change my mind.

Brainiac isn't a machine. He's an artificial intelligence, a super-computer given form, not a machine. And I used the word instincts loosely; I meant his influence, his general nature, but have used both of those words so many times in this thread that I tried to vary my vocabulary. Obviously it worked. :lol:

Anyway, now I'm really gone from this thread. :p

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

DigitalKing, great post.

[RedKRules]

The writers just left the whole did Chloe kill Sebastian or not question in the air there is not enough proof or evidence to make her innocent or guilty .... and I am sure they are not even touching there again, yeah I know SV!Continuities RULESS!! :rolleyes:

but IMO Chloe isn´t a killer.

[Mars Investigations]

Why isn't Lana influenced? Or maybe she is? Oh... the possibilities :rolleyes:

Okay, why do I keep letting myself be drawn back into this thread?

But with that statement, you have missed the entire "how" of the Brainiac/Chloe arc. Have you spent the whole season wondering why Lana hasn't shown any sign of Brainiac's infection or manifesting his abilities? Only Chloe was infected because of some sort of reaction with her healing power when he tried to reprogram her.

Rewatch "Arctic" to see Brainiac's reaction to Chloe that proves this.

Oh, and talking of reprogramming, that's another piece of evidence to add to my theory (and Digitalking's, and whoever else agrees and has argued for it). Only a small part of Brainiac was infecting Chloe, and was slowly reprogramming her to be under his control - thus, small actions and attitudes began to emerge as the reprogramming slowly took place.

As for the difference between machine and artifical intelligence, I guess you could bring them down to being the same thing. But since Brainiac is far more advanced than any other machine and essentially a super-intelligent Kryptonian, I don't think he can really be judged by any real standards of machine. After all, he is fictional.

[CarissaJoi]

Okay, this post is gonna be a little bit lengthy and may jump around a bit, but bear with me.



Once again, I'm not saying that Brainiac ever cared about Sebastian, dead or alive. But Chloe did, and that motivation to protect Clark was enhanced into a willingness to murder by Brainiac's dark influence. So I'm saying that Brainiac never made a choice, he didn't make a decision, he didn't want to kill Sebastian, and he couldn't have forced Chloe to do so at that point anyway because he never gained full control of her until "Legion". Basically, Brainiac's evil nature 'rubbed off' on Chloe.


I agreed with you when you said that Brainiac didn't care about Kane. I think he's pretty indifferent towards people when it comes to most things. I also agree that Chloe was influenced by Brainiac's dark nature.





The only ability she consciously tapped into, and the only ability she referred to as a gift, was her amplified intelligence. Up until she used superstrength and and hacked into the crystal, it's clear that she knew nothing about abilities she possessed because of Brainiac other than her brainpower. She definitely intended to use that brainpower to aid Clark, but it's obvious that she didn't consciously tap into the crystal (not in the way she did) and superstrength in "Bloodline" - it just happened. She went virtually catatonic, her eyes glowed, she swatted Oliver aside...none of this suggests any kind of conscious involvement on her part.

Do you really think she stood there and thought, "Right, let's see if I have superstrength in case Ollie interrupts" or "Right, let's use Brainiac's ruthlessness to help me kill this guy"?

I doubt it.


If you read my previous post clearly enough, I said that Chloe was obviously UNPREPARED by how powerful her Brainiac "abilities" were. With regard to using the crystal to rescue Clark from the PZ-----She deliberately chose to use the ability. She thought she could use the crystal to save Clark so she did. She wasn't prepared for the outcome, but she made the choice to use it. So, we can't really say that the decision was unconscious, but the force of the power was obviously something she wasn't ready for. Therefore, she has to retain the resposibility for the outcome.


Now, before everyone gets into an uproar, let me be clear. Using her own free will, Chloe chose to use her Brainaic abilities. She made conscious choices to use them, even though she wasn't completely clear on the outcome. So, she has to own those choices. Even Clark on RedK took responsibility for his actions. He knew RedK was dangerous, and made him reckless, but he still chose to put that ring on. And he took responsibility for that even though he didn't know exactly what he was going to do while on Red K.


Likewise, Chloe was warned by Clark that her newfound abilities were dangerous. But she chose to use them anyway, and has to own the responsibility for that choice even though she wasn't absolutely certain of the outcome.


I think it's a little nitpicky to say that the ONLY ability she looked at as a gift was the super-intelligence. Because if that was the only power she thought she gained from Brainiac, would she really have been certain that she could use the crystal to get to Clark? Because it obviously took more than super-intelligence to use the crystal. There was some sort of metaphysical power that she used to tap that crystal. Chloe was aware that she had gained more than super-intelligence or she wouldn't have told Oliver with such certainty that she could use the crystal.





I agree that Chloe knew she was going to kill him, but only because of the dark side that was lurking beneath the surface. She didn't want to, but her darker instincts drove her to the hospital. She was helpless to resist them. She went to see how much he knew, but part of her wanted him gone - and it was that part that Brainiac's ruthlessness (again, not Brainiac himself, just an aspect of his being) played upon to and influenced to cause the death of Sebastian. You can visibly see the pain on her face when he tells her what he knows, because she's all too aware of what she's about to give into.

The action, IMO, was almost entirely attributed to Brainiac's ruthlessness, which drew upon Chloe's motivation to protect Clark. All of the evidence I've seen points to this. She obviously did not have complete free will, and was obviously being influenced by something dark, evil. You can tell this from her expressions throughout the season, from her ability to identify and sympathise with Davis as he talks about his blackouts.



The stunned look on Chloe's face is definitely: "I can't believe I just did that". Why? Because at any other time, she never would have done that. But she did then because of Brainiac's influence, and she's scared at how much sway he has over her.




Okay, so we agree that Chloe premeditated the murder. Can we really say that Chloe didn't want to? If we say that it was Chloe's desire to protect Clark that made her go to that hospital and not Brainiacs....Then doesn't that "Want" necessistate the premeditation of Kane's murder? If Chloe didn't "want" to kill Sebastian then why would she bother going to the hospital? If it was her want, her need to protect Clark and not Brainaic's then SHE was not helpless against the aspect of Brainiac's being. Sure, he has a dark influence. But Chloe has free will. She knows that Brainiac is dangerous and she was also warned that any abilities gained courtesy of her infection were also dangerous. Yet, she still made a choice that stemmed from her need to protect Clark to kill. She wasn't helpless against Brainiac's influece. Just as she made a choice to go to that hospital, she could have chose to leave.


I mean, we can look at Brainiac as an active influence in Chloe's mind, but Chloe was not forced by Brainiac to do anything until he assumed control of her in the FOS. So, we really can't say she was helpless against those instincts. The devil can tempt you, but you're the one that has to sign your soul away. Free will, baby.





I agree, but it frustrates me because you're not reading what I'm saying - I never said that Brainiac wanted Sebastian dead. That's the opposite of what I've been saying.


Again, I agree. Brainiac didn't care about Kane.



Sorry, so late on the reply. I fell asleep. lol.

[davidbrenton]

Brainiac had absolutely no reason to try and kill sebastian. Had Braniac been influencing or had the ability to influence Chloe in this way, he would simply have forced her to kill clark with kryptonite or destroy GA. Not kill under the guise of protecting Clark. It's ludicrous.

[ox007]

Anyway... you can believe what you want as can I. And, IMO, Chloe killed. And with that I'm out of here. I don't even know why I've spent so much time in here talking about a character I don't even like. I was more interested in the morals of it all, because I'm against killing in any situation... but this is not the place to discuss that.

Same here. I don't know why Chloe is so popular and loved :) and I'm surprised that some of the posters referred to her as being a saint till this episode or an angel. Seriously - what?? She's done quite some questionable things during the series - don't anyone remember spying on Clark for Lionel in s3? Or being very nosey about Clark before she learned his secret. OK I know that she's done a lot for Clark on other occasions and there were times she showed she was his truly big friend but I still don't know what's so special about her that some of her fans and defenders claim that even if it was Chloe and not Brainiac who killed that guy, her deed is justified, questionable but still justified. Wtf? So if she for example blew up half of Metropolis to save Clark's secret it would be also justifiable for some people, cause Clark is a world saver and worth sacrificing other human lives? Does Chloe really blind some of her fans that much?

IMO if people started taking law into their own hands and killed others to protect their friends' secrets, the world would be in a HUGE mess with HUGE capital letters. :) Doesn't matter if CK is a world saver (in future) cause every human being is special in a way and does surely something that helps others (even by his/her work) so you could think that to kill in his defense is reasonable. It's not how the world should work and if it was Chloe who killed the guy in the hospital, her deed isn't justifiable, not at all! If so, Clark should have wiped her memory clean about his abilities a long time ago.

If people started killing cause they thought it was the right thing to do to prevent something they thought might occur if they wouldn't kill, the world would be truly crazy. And the courts would have to be closed.

Wow I'm glad that's over :)

PS. I'm not saying that Chloe killed the guy. The arguments are strong to support that theory but are also strong that it was Brainiac who did it IMO, so I'll just wait and see.

[unfocused]

Again, different opinions. I don't think that Chloe actively chose to kill Sebastian, but that she just did it because of Brainiac's dark instincts and then realized what she'd done. To use your analogy, the gun influenced the finger into pulling the trigger.

But I don't think any of us are going to change anyone else's mind.
What dark instincts? Chloe didn't develop this ruthlessness people keep talking about. I never once saw her be ruthless. When she killed Sebastian, she was serious, cold, and calculated. But she also made sure he was a threat before killing him. And that's not ruthless at all.

I seriously don't know where people got the idea that BrainIAC changed Chloe's instincts. Show me this evidence where Chloe is some dark, ruthless woman hellbent.




Chloe views image of Oliver holding the bomb toy on screen. Behind her Oliver enters silently.
OQ: Lex deserved to die, Chloe.
CS: (pause) You certainly made sure he got what he deserved. They identified the remains as Lex's.
OQ: What does Clark think?
CS: That Winslow turned on Lex. Pieces of a toy bomb were found in the wreckage.
OQ: (blinking, turning to look at newspaper) Yeah, well, that makes sense. Wouldn't be like Winslow to play a game he can't win.
CS: (indignantly) Are you seriously going to let another man take the blame for something you did?
OQ: (facing Chloe, dropping paper) Chloe, Winslow's already a killer. He blew up all those people at Luthorcorp. He was about ready to take down the entire Daily Planet. (quieter) One more death's not going to make any difference.
CS: Are you listening to yourself? Oliver, you've really crossed a line here.
OQ: (interrupting) Lex is dead. The world is safer because of it. Clark is safe again.
CS: This is murder.
OQ: This is justice.
(Chloe continues to stare at Oliver incredulously)
OQ: Although Clark may not be able to accept that, you know what I did was right.
(Chloe is unsure of herself; Oliver crosses past)
OQ: Please don't stand there and look so innocent. You know, I did a little video viewing of my own. Seems a certain meteor freak named Sebastian Kane (Chloe's expression hardens) died at the hospital. Right after he was visited by somebody who looked an awful lot like you.
CS: (shaking her head) That was Brainiac. Not me.
OQ: Was it? (whispering) Because it seemed like a pretty natural instinct to protect Clark.
(Chloe regards Oliver)
OQ: Now that Lex is gone, you can't tell me you're not relieved.
CS: (looking downward) Every fiber of my conscience wants to say that's not true. But--
OQ: Then you can't tell Clark what I did. Lex just ripped the man's heart out, Chloe. He's going to need his friends around him right now more than ever.
(Oliver leaves, Chloe ponders his words in a state of chagrin)
What's with all the commentary? I know exactly how that scene goes, the only time Chloe was "unsure of herself" was when she was unsure of the lie she was telling.

What your transcript tells us is that Chloe agrees that Lex is better off dead. She thought Lex would be better off dead last season in Quest, to. That's the bold faced truth, Chloe believes in murder for the greater good. And I'm not sure that's what you intended when writing that out.

Also, Chloe is the one that gave up in the argument that she murdered Sebastian, not Oliver.


Chloe felt guilty about being relieved over Lex's death. She probably also felt guilty about her involvement, however minimal. Oliver didn't say "You keep my secret and I'll keep yours," he said "You know I was right to do this thing even though Clark wouldn't understand."
The reason Oliver brought up her murder was to prove that she has done the same. Once he accomplished that, he used it to blackmail Chloe into keeping his murder from Clark.


And the more I think about this, the more it seems ridiculous. Oliver knew Chloe had Brainiac in her head. He experienced her strength firsthand. He knows that Clark has used his powers on countless freaks in Belle Reve. Why would he assume that Chloe was acting of her own free will unless he was looking to try and blackmail her? Further, why would the audience? Did anyone think that Clark was the person who was toying with Chloe in Transference, and that he just happened to decide to call Chloe "Ms. Sullivan"? We knew Lionel was in his body, we knew Lionel calls Chloe that, and we knew Clark wouldn't toy with Chloe like that. So why, when someone we knew was in Chloe's body who compares the power of the brain to the power of a computer decided to kill someone who could get in the way of his Rube Goldberg-style plans, would we blame OOC behavior on Chloe?
It isn't OOC for Chloe to protect Clark's secret. And trust me, I've already had the "OOC" argument many times and I would suggest you not use it. It's weak and pertains more to writing faults, not character faults.

And I agree, Oliver used Chloe's murder to blackmail her into keeping his murder a secret. And it worked. Blackmailing only works when there is proof. This is another strong point that there is proof that Chloe murdered Sebastian.


In any case, on the subject of alibis, the key is not that they should be weak (and how is "There's an evil computer in my brain" a weak alibi?) but that they should be plausible and present a plausible amount of information.
Since Chloe had no plausible amount of information, since her case was a weak one-liner, and since she gave up, this all tells me Chloe is guilty of murder. And this would tell any jury across the country, that Chloe is guilty of murder.


Further, I wasn't trying to fill in a plot-hole with my theory, I was giving an example of something Chloe could have said if she was a killer. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying she could have said that if she was lying.
And that's what fanwanking is. Giving excuses for the characters and story.


As it stands, Chloe's most recent stance on killing is that she can't condemn Oliver for killing Lex because she feels relieved that Lex is gone. What more needs to be said?
Nothing at all. That conversation finished with Oliver winning the "Chloe, you murdered Sebastian Kane" argument and Chloe's belief in murder for the greater good.


PS. I'm sorry to see you go, Mars Investigations and Sv.LoisLane, you two added more intelligent conversation to the discussion.

[Mars Investigations]

PS. I'm sorry to see you go, Mars Investigations, you added more intelligent conversation to the discussion.

Thanks, unfocused :) I would stay, but K-Site (and this thread particularly) is drawing me away from the masses of work I have to do. :\

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Oh, and talking of reprogramming, that's another piece of evidence to add to my theory (and Digitalking's, and whoever else agrees and has argued for it). Only a small part of Brainiac was infecting Chloe, and was slowly reprogramming her to be under his control - thus, small actions and attitudes began to emerge as the reprogramming slowly took place.

lets say then that brainiac was slowly taking over chloe with its influence and it killed sebastian this happened in "indentity" and the ep afterwards was "bloodline" in which chloe asked oliver to help her in retrieving the FOS crystal to save clark

now if brainiac was so in control of chloes actions then why did it need to save clark, brainiac had the FOS crystal, had chloe and had doomsday all on earth it didnt need to save clark from the PZ, and by saving clark he brought back kara (brainiac might i add put her in the PZ) and clark was given the shield to remove brainiac from kara

so brainiac went from trying to kill clark back in S7, now in S8 to killing sum1 to protect clark to saving clark itself for what to kill him again :lol:

[Mars Investigations]

so brainiac went from trying to kill clark back in S7, now in S8 to killing sum1 to protect clark to saving clark itself for what to kill him again :lol:

Okay, now I'm honestly sure that you're not reading my posts. I've stated this so many times it's ridiculous:


I'm not saying protecting Clark was Brainiac's goal.


I am in no way suggesting that Brainiac wanted to protect Oliver or Clark or whoever else.


Just to emphasise my point once again, to make it clear, I am not saying that Brainiac wanted to save anyone.


Once again, I'm not saying that Brainiac ever cared about Sebastian, dead or alive.

I agree, but it frustrates me because you're not reading what I'm saying - I never said that Brainiac wanted Sebastian dead. That's the opposite of what I've been saying.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Okay, now I'm honestly sure that you're not reading my posts. I've stated this so many times it's ridiculous:

yet your posts keep defending chloe insisting she wasnt acting herself thus it had to be brainiac :confused:

[Mars Investigations]

yet your posts keep defending chloe insisting she wasnt acting herself thus it had to be brainiac :confused:

See another of my old posts:

I think the implication is clear from everything we've seen so far that it wasn't all Chloe, but that at the same time, it wasn't all Brainiac either. There's a middle ground here.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

See another of my old posts:

well from having looked at your older post, i still cant understand where your arguement is coming from as your stance with chloe keeps implying that shes innocent

im sorry if you think im not getting your point i just cant understand how neither character is innocent nor guilty but at the same time its easy to blame 1 characters influence over the other due to what there capable of

[unfocused]

I'm still waiting for someone to give me some examples of all these little things that BrainIAC influenced Chloe to do slowly as he progressed stronger inside of her.

This theory came up after Chloe murdered Sebastian, and many of Chloe's defenders use it at will. Yet none of them have given any examples of all these small influences/changes to Chloe that BrainIAC caused.

Like I've been saying all along, Chloe didn't become ruthless when BrainIAC was inside of her, there are no scenes that prove this. Chloe didn't do little things that BrainIAC would have done, we saw nothing that showed him progressing inside her. The most BrainIAC could do to Chloe was begin erasing her memories until she could only remember Davis Bloome. And he had to wait until he had control of the Fortress for Davis/Doomsday to capture Chloe for him, so he could finally take control of her. Other than that, all we saw BrainIAC do to Chloe was give her powers, and that wasn't even intentional, that was a side effect of his infection combined with her Kryptonite infection.

So, what are all these little things that BrainIAC influenced Chloe to do, what are all the changes that he caused in Chloe? And if he did grow stronger while inside of her, why did he not take advantage of the opportunity to use her how he pleased?

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


lets say then that brainiac was slowly taking over chloe with its influence and it killed sebastian this happened in "indentity" and the ep afterwards was "bloodline" in which chloe asked oliver to help her in retrieving the FOS crystal to save clark

now if brainiac was so in control of chloes actions then why did it need to save clark, brainiac had the FOS crystal, had chloe and had doomsday all on earth it didnt need to save clark from the PZ, and by saving clark he brought back kara (brainiac might i add put her in the PZ) and clark was given the shield to remove brainiac from kara

so brainiac went from trying to kill clark back in S7, now in S8 to killing sum1 to protect clark to saving clark itself for what to kill him again :lol:

I had to quote this, it poses a difficult question for those blaming BrainIAC instead of Chloe and I would very much like to see their answers.

[Bizarrolover]

So, what are all these little things that BrainIAC influenced Chloe to do, what are all the changes that he caused in Chloe? And if he did grow stronger while inside of her, why did he not take advantage of the opportunity to use her how he pleased?


I hope no one says that Chloe married Jimmy because Brainiac influenced her. Considering how many people dislike that ship and seeing how little interest she shows in her husband now that she's cured, I wound't be surprised if someome blamed Brainiac for that one too. :)

[Mars Investigations]

well from having looked at your older post, i still cant understand where your arguement is coming from as your stance with chloe keeps implying that shes innocent

im sorry if you think im not getting your point i just cant understand how neither character is innocent nor guilty but at the same time its easy to blame 1 characters influence over the other due to what there capable of

I can't be bothered to carry on explaining. I think I've made my point clear enough in my previous posts; anything I add now will just be repeating myself.

[unfocused]

I hope no one says that Chloe married Jimmy because Brainiac influenced her. Considering how many people dislike that ship and seeing how little interest she shows in her husband now that she's cured, I wound't be surprised if someome blamed Brainiac for that one too. :)

That sad thing is, some of those defending Chloe have already blamed BrainIAC for influencing her to marry Jimmy. What's even more sadder, is that these people are actually serious :lol:

But what's the most saddest, is that these same people just have no intelligent answer for that question ;)

(disclaimer: I've only found a few people that stooped that low. I wasn't talking about all of Chloe's supporters)

[Bizarrolover]

That sad thing is, some of those defending Chloe have already blamed BrainIAC for influencing her to marry Jimmy. What's even more sadder, is that these people are actually serious :lol:

But what's the most saddest, is that these same people just have no intelligent answer for that question ;)

(disclaimer: I've only found a few people that stooped that low. I wasn't talking about all of Chloe's supporters)

Well, maybe Brainiac is in love with Jimmy!:lol:

[Malicieux Toutou]

When characters have been completely without their faculty of free will on Smallville, like Lana by Isobel, Lex by Zod, Lois by Faora, or everyone in the episode Delete, they never remember anything that happened during the possession. So the very fact that Chloe remembers the murder tells me a lot. At the very least, she was made an accomplice because she didn't turn herself in to the police or Clark even though she knew what happened.

I don't think Brainiac had any reason to kill Sebastian. And he had no reason to want to save Clark from the Phantom Zone in the next episode. So I think Chloe was acting on her own volition. But I do think that perhaps her moral judgment was impaired by the Brainiac infection. I'm not sure how much so, and I can't really explain how or why the Brainiac infection would have affected her morality. Perhaps it's simply that power corrupts. But at the very least, I think she is responsible for the crime in the same way that Clark is still responsible for what he does when on Red Kryptonite.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

When characters have been completely without their faculty of free will on Smallville, like Lana by Isobel, Lex by Zod, Lois by Faora, or everyone in the episode Delete, they never remember anything that happened during the possession. So the very fact that Chloe remembers the murder tells me a lot. At the very least, she was made an accomplice because she didn't turn herself in to the police or Clark even though she knew what happened.

I don't think Brainiac had any reason to kill Sebastian. And he had no reason to want to save Clark from the Phantom Zone in the next episode. So I think Chloe was acting on her own volition. But I do think that perhaps her moral judgment was impaired by the Brainiac infection. I'm not sure how much so, and I can't really explain how or why the Brainiac infection would have affected her morality. Perhaps it's simply that power corrupts. But at the very least, I think she is responsible for the crime in the same way that Clark is still responsible for what he does when on Red Kryptonite.

once again red-k isnt comparible as clark has never saved any1 whilest under its influence, were as chloe has saved 3 people

[Bizarrolover]

once again red-k isnt comparible as clark has never saved any1 whilest under its influence, were as chloe has saved 3 people

Who and from what?

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Who and from what?

sorry i should have been more clear on the infections

red-k clark has never saved any1

brainiac infected chloe has saved oliver, clark and kara (added bonus to clark)

so until clark starts saving people on red-k i refuse to see the comparison between influences and responsibilities

[Malicieux Toutou]

once again red-k isnt comparible as clark has never saved any1 whilest under its influence, were as chloe has saved 3 people

That just means they aren't identical influences, but that doesn't mean they aren't comparable influences in regards to assessing responsibility. Clark's morals are impaired when he's on Red-K, but they don't completely vanish. He has shown restraint. In the episode Phoenix, you might even say that he saved his father from himself by destroying the red-k ring.

[Bizarrolover]

sorry i should have been more clear on the infections

red-k clark has never saved any1

brainiac infected chloe has saved oliver, clark and kara (added bonus to clark)

so until clark starts saving people on red-k i refuse to see the comparison between influences and responsibilities

I disagree.

Chloiac almost killed Kara when opened the portal and sucked Clark in while he was trying to rescue her, almost leaving Kara to die alone and at the mercy of phantoms that would use her blood to open the gate. Chloe didn't save Clark either because he knew the way out of the PZ and he and Kara were being cautious about not opening the portal while there were still phantoms around. Chloe opened that portal without knowing what was going on on the other side. Her actions weren't heroic, they were irresponsible.

And yes, her fast search in Toxic. That was a good one.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

I disagree.

Chloiac almost killed Kara when opened the portal and sucked Clark in while he was trying to rescue her, almost leaving Kara to die alone and at the mercy of phantoms that would use her blood to open the gate. Chloe didn't save Clark either because he knew the way out of the PZ and he and Kara were being cautious about not opening the portal while there were still phantoms around. Chloe opened that portal without knowing what was going on on the other side. Her actions weren't heroic, they were irresponsible.

And yes, her fast search in Toxic. That was a good one.

i never said chloes intention was to save kara i stated that it was an added bonus, i know that clark and kara could leave via the PZ gates but neither 1 had any intention using them for themselves to escape

----- Added 11 Minutes later -----


That just means they aren't identical influences, but that doesn't mean they aren't comparable influences in regards to assessing responsibility. Clark's morals are impaired when he's on Red-K, but they don't completely vanish. He has shown restraint. In the episode Phoenix, you might even say that he saved his father from himself by destroying the red-k ring.

i seem to remember that battle didnt clark beat jonathan up before being freaked out by the thought of killing! to destroy the ring which clark took off many occasions prior to that

[Malicieux Toutou]

I can think of two possibilities for how the Brainiac infection was influencing Chloe's choices. The simplest explanation would be that she was simply corrupted by the power. Like Lana in Wrath, or Pete in that Stride gum episode, or Chloe before in Truth. I don't think you can completely absolve any of them for their misdeeds done while on their power trips, but you can empathize with them because of the mitigating circumstances. So if you are a jury, maybe you convict Chloe of manslaughter rather than murder.

The second explanation is that the infection was steadily stripping her of her humanity. Her moral decisions were becoming more like mathematical calculations, and were less affected by human emotion. She hadn't completely lost her humanity when she killed Sebastian, which would explain the disturbed look on her face at the end, but the computer side of her consciousness had won out. In this scenario, it's ambiguous how much moral responsibility should ultimately lie with Chloe.

But I think for sure that Chloe was acting on her own motives, and not Brainiac's. The argument that Brainiac had direct control of her actions just doesn't hold up. It doesn't fit with everything that happened in subsequent episodes, as has been explained by people in this thread.

It's also possible that the murder wasn't in any way influenced by her Brainiac infection and that she just isn't the person many of us thought she was. The fact that in Requiem she ultimately concurred with Oliver about Lex's death supports this explanation. I guess we'll see.

[Dyanara]

OMGawd now not only is Oliver a part of some conspiracy against Chloe but Chloe wasn't Chloe earlier in the season she was some entity called Chloiac? Ok seriously stop grasping here, Chloe was posessed by Braniac but he was not forcing her to do things. Chloe did what she did to Sebastian with only the help of Braniac's power. And what purpose would Braniac have for keeping Clark safe? There has never been anything in this season to indicate that Clark was needed for some all encompasing Braniac plan. All he needed was Chloe and Davis, not Clark. Like others have said, Chloe had free will and she used it to kill him; but I also must say that I agree that if she did not have Braniac so fully at hand that she would not have killed him.
I personally always thought he was dead, the flatline imo was the nail in the coffin. Yes the doctors rushed in but it was just for an effect. That's how I saw it neway.

[SGuthrie27]

Malicieux Toutou, I agree with the first two paragraphs of your post, to be sure. You made some excellent points. I don't think that the fourth paragraph is even a possibility, but I have to admit that the third COULD be true -- we'll have to wait and see how this gels with her later actions toward the end of the season. Future spoilers don't look too promising for the future of her character, which makes me sad (and more than a little bit angry besides).

However, after rewatching "Identity" tonight, I am more convinced than ever that Chloe was NOT the only one behind Sebastian's death. Every line seemed like it was being delivered by Brainiac in his cold, calculating, merciless tone. The only one that sounded like Chloe was when she talked about the brain being like a computer, but when she got back to, "Here; let me show you," it was pure Brainiac tone again. Rewatch it yourself and I think you'll agree. It just wasn't the normal cadence or tone of Chloe's voice at all -- it doesn't match it at any time that she's been angry, upset, or even dangerous from what I've seen; trust me on this, I'm one of her biggest fans. :)

And I still think there was ample reason for Brainiac AND Chloe to want Sebastian dead. He NEEDED to get Chloe up to the Fortress, and the most expedient way to do so was to delete her memories, spurring Clark to try to recreate the Fortress of Solitude, bring her there so it could get infected and prepare it for Doomsday's arrival, etc. I also believe that it's highly likely that Chloe, while possessed by Brainiac, was the "X" who stole the crystal in the first place. At least, that's my current theory, and if we later find out that it's true, it would make it look far more likely that Chloe was NOT as much as in control of herself, or the growing Brainiac influence/personality inside of her as some of you would lead us to think.

Those are my highly enlightened two cents (in my somewhat humble opinion in this case) after watching that awesome episode over again.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[I_am_LEX]

i didnt think she killed him either... but didnt Oliver say something about her killing him? I thought she just braindrained him... it was her, but it wasn't all her, you could tell.

[unfocused]

I could tell it was all her.

[smallvillerocks45]

The way things have panned out so far, it really does seem like Sebastian is dead - but I wouldn't be surprised if a mind-wiped Sebastian suddenly showed up in one of Tess' groups.

As for Chloe's free will... that is so hard to assess.
Ultimately, Chloe chose to see her powers as a gift and how much of that decision was hers versus Brainiac's is still quite ambiguous. Yet, when a Brainiac-free Chloe stated that she liked having the Brainiac "upgrade," she hinted that at least some of the time she had control over her abilities - but then again, maybe she just thought she did... Wow, this is confusing. I hope PS3 clarify this part of the story.

[Iluvgreen]

That's kinda cool... I guess. But I still think that he died...

[Who]

After rewatching "Identity" tonight, it is clearly Brainiac talking right before Sebastian gets it. It is Brainaic's exact speech/manarisms. You could have replaced Allison Mack with James Marsters and there would be no difference.
Granted Chloe's worry about Clark probably opened the flood gates for Brainaic to take control.
I think killing someone to protect someone you loved or cared about would be a normal impulse for anyone. I think Chloe would have thought about it for a second and then thought no this is wrong. Unfortunately, under Brainaic influence that second thought would be rewritten or erased.
I also don't see why Brainaic needs a reason to kill anyone. This is Brainaic after all. I can't help but feel that Sebastian slighted Brainaic's power when talking to Chloe. Brainaic thinks of all humans as inferior. It wouldn't take much for him to want to squish Sebastian like the annoying bug that he is. I really don't think Clark needs to be the reason for him wanting to kill Sebastian.
Having said that Chloe didn't really put up much of a fight to stop Brainaic from doing the deed.

[Malicieux Toutou]

Malicieux Toutou, I agree with the first two paragraphs of your post, to be sure. You made some excellent points. I don't think that the fourth paragraph is even a possibility

A couple of weeks ago I wouldn't have considered it a possibility either, but unless the spoilers are misleading, Chloe's going to be a doing a lot of things that I never would have imagined she was capable of.

There are semi-plausible explanations for why Brainiac would want Sebastian killed, but I can't think of any reason why he would want to rescue Clark from the phantom zone.

[Khyla]

There are semi-plausible explanations for why Brainiac would want Sebastian killed, but I can't think of any reason why he would want to rescue Clark from the phantom zone.
see my post:
http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4454353&postcount=90

[unfocused]

Future spoilers don't look too promising for the future of her character, which makes me sad (and more than a little bit angry besides).

Can you please give me some of these future spoilers? I know I made a promise to myself not to indulge myself with spoilers, but I think, for the sake of this discussion, it would be ok this one time to know a little more about what's going to happen with Chloe's character :)

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

its amazing how some people still want to defend chloe yet ignore the other incidents that chloe used brainiac for her own means, but i guess so long as chloe looks innocent it has to be brainiac that killed sebastian to make chloe look normal when she saved oliver, clark and kara :\:rolleyes:

[SGuthrie27]

Errrr... sure, Mr. unfocused. *SPOILER ALERT AHEAD* It sounds like Chloe is going to be harboring a fugitive Davis/Doomsday in the Talon basement. EEK! Not the most pleasant houseguest, to be sure. I imagine it could serve to drive QUITE the wedge in the Chlark friendship (and give me a major migraine and/or panic attack).

Malicieux Toutou, that's a good point as well. But yet that was obviously Brainiac's powers there, and probably a good chunk of him using Chloe as a vessel, too, with the way her eyes were pure white, how she tossed Oliver across the room, etc. I'll go check out your post, Khyla -- you always seem to have some cool, well-thought-out theories. :)

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

P.S. SV's immortal hero, why don't you try living with an evil digital alien entity growing inside of you and seeing what YOU do with your new technological wizardry? LOL, just kidding. :) But realistically, I know what you're saying. I just believe that at some points, Brainiac was using Chloe more directly, and at others, it was Chloe trying to use her Brainiac abilities to her own ends. Part of me wonders if the more she used those powers she wasn't allowing Brainiac more and more access to her mind, her emotions, her motivations, etc.... We saw how he was trying to alienate her from her friends in "Abyss" and draw her ever closer to Davis.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[smallvillerocks45]

Yeah. He probably did die - but I still wouldn't be surprised if he came back. That might actually be kind of exciting, granted that his character is used well.

[unfocused]

Haha, I was so drunk when I asked for spoilers, but thanks SGuthrie. That doesn't seem like such a big deal, though.

I'm just expecting Chloe to tell Clark "I killed Sebastian." And he responds with "but you were infected with Brainiac at the time." And then Chloe confesses "that's what I kept telling myself, Clark, but I made the choice to kill him."

[Lazy Boy]

heh, heh - give yourself a bit more time cause I don't think the effect of alcohol has worn off yet judging by the delirious little script you have written. :lol:

[Who]

If Sebastian didn't die he was certainly brain dead.

[Khyla]

... I'll go check out your post, Khyla -- you always seem to have some cool, well-thought-out theories. :)
Thank You! Sometimes I think my posts must be invisible. It's good to know some ppl actually read them! :)


I just believe that at some points, Brainiac was using Chloe more directly, and at others, it was Chloe trying to use her Brainiac abilities to her own ends. Part of me wonders if the more she used those powers she wasn't allowing Brainiac more and more access to her mind, her emotions, her motivations, etc....
--SGuthrie ><>' :)--
That's an interesting way to put it!

[SGuthrie27]

You're welcome. Wow, I read that post, and everything you said in there made so much sense. You brought up a lot of scenes and lines that I'd forgotten about, and when you string them all together the way you did, it makes it seem far more likely, almost definite, that Brainiac was doing much more to manipulate Chloe than it originally appeared, however subtly at first. I wonder what held him back from taking control for so long -- was he just waiting, biding his time until the crystal was found so that the Fortress could be rebuilt (and I believe Clark would have had to be the one to do that, which would be another reason he was brought back from the Phantom Zone with Chloe using Brainiac's powers -- or Brainiac using her as a vessel), or were her healing powers (which seem to have disappeared) lingering enough to fight off the "infection" for as long as she possibly could? Kind of off-topic, but I'm interested to get your take on that, Khyla, and anyone else who's interested to bat around their own theories.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[Khyla]

I'm still waiting for someone to give me some examples of all these little things that BrainIAC influenced Chloe to do slowly as he progressed stronger inside of her.

So, what are all these little things that BrainIAC influenced Chloe to do, what are all the changes that he caused in Chloe? And if he did grow stronger while inside of her, why did he not take advantage of the opportunity to use her how he pleased?

To answer your questions as well as offer my speculations to SGuthrie:
Remember when Brainiac-"material" was in a container and the researchers said it seemed to be "evolving", then at the end of the episode WRATH we see Brainiac in "puddle" form enter the Lab assistant? If you recall in the ep GEMINI, we found out that the girl could not withstand the absorption of the 'trace-Brainiac matter' that escaped the vial in liquid form. the assistant was incapacitated, all her metals depleted, and mumbling in Krytonian "hex code".
Near the end of Gemini we have Chloe explaining that the code from the girl gave the "error message" of a computer that keeps trying to boot-up, learning from it's mistakes each time it does so it continues trying and improving. I'm guessing the same sort of thing happened inside CHloe

but I believe CHloe posed a real challenge to Brainiac. Though he might have "learned" from his previous host how to keep from killing the human he inhabits when rebuilding itself, OR if it was her meteor power that kept him from incapacitating her, it probably is what kept him from completely corrupting her, in the beginning. I'm sure it must have been a real tug-of-war going on inside her.

I mentioned this back at the beginning of October and I DID voice my concerns then, as did many others.:
I remembered a sci-fi I once saw where the test-subject of intelligence enhancement ended up becoming a calculating super-genius who lost all sense of moral responsibility and humanity.

I even had a little humorous fanwanking that came out of those thoughts :p :):
"Chloe's brainiac infection has her intellect in super gear but her brain is so intent on intellectual matters that it hasn't allowed her the time to just enjoy some plain old feelings and emotions. ...she is practically starved emotionally. Add to that, the building up of her brain-power has left her emotional/moral compass in the dirt. Even her tactile sensation has become dulled, and it is somewhat disconcerting..."
--to see the rest: http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4068932&postcount=21758

A bunch of posts on the subject of Chloe acting "strangely" started about here around the time Toxic first aired:
http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4037838&postcount=18

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4037922&postcount=22



And before ppl blast me about mentioning Brainiac's influence in how CHloe dealt with Jimmy, just take a second and tell me that the Chloe we knew would have given Jimmy a "free pass" when she finds out that he's been lying to her since they met, about his life history, his family, where and how he grew up; He even said he was going to Thanksgiving dinner with his folks. They made it even more clear that she really knew very little about him, like his taste in music, etc. We saw her look dismayed for a second when he revealed "I'm not who you think I am." then brush it aside like it was nothing.

There were lots of comments made on the boards about "Steptford CHloe"....


my initial speculations:

I'm not so sure that it's actually Brainiac himself inside her, but more like some of his essence.; like I previously said in another thread, I think that Chloe's power has been to repel/dissipate negative energy and absorb and use positive energy.

Brainiac's intelligence, in and of itself, was seen by her as a positive and useful energy, however, I think she may have 'bit off more than she can chew'. Her capacity to handle that much intellectual ability is straining on her.... and is beginning to show....


Here's what AM said in her TV Guide interview and I quote:
http://www.tvguide.com/News/Allison-...lle-20069.aspx


AM: "Well, on the one hand, she's still doing work with Clark and getting married to Jimmy and doing her lovely, good-girl Chloe thing, and on the other hand she's struggling with this "pull" towards Davis and these dark, evil tendencies and a want to destroy things, which is very much Brainiac. She has a massive pull between these two sides of her that’s (s)he's struggling to suppress until she learns to understand it".

[unfocused]

I was hoping for solid evidence, not a bunch of guesses. Evidence such as scenes of BrainIAC influencing or controlling Chloe. You know, things Chloe wouldn't have done if BrainIAC was not inside of her.

But I don't expect any real answer.

BrainIAC could have been her excuse, but she has no real proof of him ever making a decision for her.

[actaeon]

OMGawd now not only is Oliver a part of some conspiracy against Chloe but Chloe wasn't Chloe earlier in the season she was some entity called Chloiac? LOL. I really like Chloe, but I don't understand the need to make her an angel, blameless in all things and perpetually the victim. What she did to Sebastian was interesting! Part of me thinks she ought to be credited with the kill. Give her character the moral depth to do something that is terrible but perhaps necessary, to commit a moral transgression, to have an unhealthy obsession.




Ok seriously stop grasping here, Chloe was posessed by Braniac but he was not forcing her to do things.I'll go you one better, I don't think Chloe was even possessed by Brainiac. Clark referred to it as being "infected" by Brainiac, and I think the distinction is important.

Having Brainiac abilities may have influenced her and affected her judgment in ways that we have seen before when a person suddenly gets "abilities". The power goes to their head (Pete, with his glowing green chewing gum). It's not possession, it's not loss of free will, it's a case of absolute power corrupting absolutely.

Chloe has stated at least once that she misses having the Brainiac abilities and the ability to tap into data at hyperspeed. She liked it, she liked the power! So while she may have been seduced by the power, she was in no way being forced to do things against her will.

[Who]

Her attaction to Davis seemed to be gone when Brainaic was out of her system. I have to wonder if it wasn't Brainaic who wasn't causing that attraction. That would be one instance of influence.
My take on all of this is that Brainaic was weak and waiting for the right moment to take control and was buying time with Chloe. Chloe is to blame as she knew she was playing with fire and used the power that Brainaic gave her. But it is different from when Lana and Pete got power. With them they weren't able to handle the power they got responsibly. In Chloe's case there are seperate entities occupying the same body. When Brainaic is in control it is Brainaic.
I'm not sure why it matters that Brainaic would have influenced her before or that he had not taken control before. The fact of the matter he was in full control when Sebastian was killed.
I do blame Chloe for not putting up much of a fight to regain control though. It is like she stepped aside and let Brainaic do the dirty work. So I would say she is a accessory to murder. I think with her conversation with Oliver she is not really sure. But I wouldn't say that is an admission of guilt either.

[Khyla]

Again,
Here's what Allison Mack said in her TV Guide interview:

"Well, on the one hand, she's still doing work with Clark and getting married to Jimmy and doing her lovely, good-girl Chloe thing, and on the other hand she's struggling with this "pull" towards Davis and these dark, evil tendencies and a want to destroy things, which is very much Brainiac. She has a massive pull between these two sides of her that’s (s)he's struggling to suppress until she learns to understand it".source: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Allison-...lle-20069.aspx

[morena]

LOL. I really like Chloe, but I don't understand the need to make her an angel, blameless in all things and perpetually the victim. What she did to Sebastian was interesting! Part of me thinks she ought to be credited with the kill. Give her character the moral depth to do something that is terrible but perhaps necessary, to commit a moral transgression, to have an unhealthy obsession.


I'll go you one better, I don't think Chloe was even possessed by Brainiac. Clark referred to it as being "infected" by Brainiac, and I think the distinction is important.

Having Brainiac abilities may have influenced her and affected her judgment in ways that we have seen before when a person suddenly gets "abilities". The power goes to their head (Pete, with his glowing green chewing gum). It's not possession, it's not loss of free will, it's a case of absolute power corrupting absolutely.

Chloe has stated at least once that she misses having the Brainiac abilities and the ability to tap into data at hyperspeed. She liked it, she liked the power! So while she may have been seduced by the power, she was in no way being forced to do things against her will.

If Chloe is in fact the kind of person who would kill to protect Clark, why did Oliver need to blackmail her to not to talk to Clark that he "killed" Lex? Lex is more dangerous than Sebastian to Clark. So, was she reluctant? why doesn't she set out to obliterate him as enthusiastically as she did Sebastian?
it's because she was Brainiac when she killed Sebastian.

[unfocused]

Chloe wasn't BrainIAC last season when she tried convincing Clark into killing Lex.

[hanemg]

Having Brainiac abilities may have influenced her and affected her judgment in ways that we have seen before when a person suddenly gets "abilities". The power goes to their head (Pete, with his glowing green chewing gum). It's not possession, it's not loss of free will, it's a case of absolute power corrupting absolutely.

Since you mention it, we did see power corrupt Chloe way back in season 3 in the episode "Truth" if you remember.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Chloe wasn't BrainIAC last season when she tried convincing Clark into killing Lex.

unfortunately this evidence doesnt hold up in the court of chloe fans that must defend her every action :\

[tj_powers]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... I think every season Chloe becomes more and more cryptic and dark than the latter. the fact that she is still talking to Davis Bloome even though he admitted to be possible he may have killed she decided to believe him without truly knowing him. Something tells me she is seeking thrills now that she is married and not fully on the working force other than the Isis Foundation.

[DigitalKing]

Officially getting drawn back into this.


Chloe wasn't BrainIAC last season when she tried convincing Clark into killing Lex.
Unfocused, don't you mean

Chloe wasn't BrainIAC last season when she suggested that Clark may have to make a decision about killing Lex in the future.?

If Chloe's stance was "Lex needs to die" rather than "The world is safer without Lex Luthor" then she wouldn't have been shocked when Oliver a) suggested that he was actually taking steps toward killing Lex and b) carried out his plan.

So yes, as I asked earlier, why would she kill Sebastian, a relatively harmless, two-bit meteor freak but balk at Oliver's murder of Lex, a dangerous person who knows Clark's weakness and wants to kill Clark?

[unfocused]

Chloe balked at Lex's murder... Funny, because she seemed to agree with Oliver in the end there.

By the way, I know what I meant. Chloe believes the world would be safer if people such as Lex and Sebastian are killed. It's pretty fine cut.

[tj_powers]

I agree that her reaction was somewhat vague but i still conclude that Chloe is becoming much darker than before... maybe being infected gave her more evil intentions

[DigitalKing]

Chloe balked at Lex's murder... Funny, because she seemed to agree with Oliver in the end there.Yes, in the end. IN THE END. As in, after his persuasion. After his manipulation. Not before.


By the way, I know what I meant. Chloe believes the world would be safer if people such as Lex and Sebastian are killed. It's pretty fine cut.What's wrong? You find it annoying when people deliberately misrepresent your statements?

In any case, there's a clear difference between believing that someone not existing would make the world a better place and actually pulling the proverbial trigger. Lex has committed many crimes that, if tried and convicted, would likely net him the death penalty. He has murdered many, tortured even more, and his cloning programs show a gross disregard for human life. But for his wealth and influence, he has escaped what many (non-vigilante types) would refer to as justice. Yet Chloe still had to be arm-twisted into agreeing with Oliver's plan to actually carry out his execution. Remember, Chloe's mother was held by Lex and used for his mind-control serum. She herself was threatened and eventually fired by Lex. And yet she still initially condemned Oliver's actions.

[tj_powers]

In any case, there's a clear difference between believing that someone not existing would make the world a better place and actually pulling the proverbial trigger. Lex has committed many crimes that, if tried and convicted, would likely net him the death penalty. He has murdered many, tortured even more, and his cloning programs show a gross disregard for human life. But for his wealth and influence, he has escaped what many (non-vigilante types) would refer to as justice. Yet Chloe still had to be arm-twisted into agreeing with Oliver's plan to actually carry out his execution. Remember, Chloe's mother was held by Lex and used for his mind-control serum. She herself was threatened and eventually fired by Lex. And yet she still initially condemned Oliver's actions.

The only problem to that is that when Lex did all those things he did them in a way that always made us believe it was him but never proved otherwize. Like who killed Patricia Swann?? It wasn't Lex... but Lex most likely hired the goon... but who's to know :P

[unfocused]

Yes, in the end. IN THE END. As in, after his persuasion. After his manipulation. Not before.
Oliver didn't need to persuade Chloe, because she already believes in murder for the greater good, which has been made obvious this season and last.


What's wrong? You find it annoying when people deliberately misrepresent your statements?
:lol: Oh so you were deliberately misrepresenting my statements? Don't be a troll. And stop fanwanking.


In any case, there's a clear difference between believing that someone not existing would make the world a better place and actually pulling the proverbial trigger. Lex has committed many crimes that, if tried and convicted, would likely net him the death penalty. He has murdered many, tortured even more, and his cloning programs show a gross disregard for human life. But for his wealth and influence, he has escaped what many (non-vigilante types) would refer to as justice. Yet Chloe still had to be arm-twisted into agreeing with Oliver's plan to actually carry out his execution. Remember, Chloe's mother was held by Lex and used for his mind-control serum. She herself was threatened and eventually fired by Lex. And yet she still initially condemned Oliver's actions.
Chloe was "arm twisted" into agreeing with Oliver? You mean she was blackmailed, but you wouldn't admit that because blackmail only works if the person is guilty :rolleyes:

[Lazy Boy]

Chloe was "arm twisted" into agreeing with Oliver? You mean she was blackmailed, but you wouldn't admit that because blackmail only works if the person is guilty :rolleyes:

I won't say blackmail but he did emotionally manipulate her into accepting with his approach to killing Lex by preying on her love/concern for Clark. But don't forget that scene where Oliver actually confronted Chloe about Sebastain was played after the (supposely) killing of Lex.

Still I will stick with the point of view that Chloe looked more confused than guilty when Oliver confronted her otherwise she would have been more defensive. I think that the writers have intentionally left ambiguities in that scene to encourage discussions like this and give us something to talk about during the hiatus. It's working. :lol:

[unfocused]

I think somewhere along the line we got confused, lol.

Because Chloe's argument to Oliver was that he was letting another man take the blame for his murder. Chloe obviously already dwells in the morally gray, like many of us, when it comes to the idea that a person should be killed if we want to save others. That one kid was trying to say there's a difference between believing someone should be killed to save others, and believing the world is safer if that person no longer exists. But that doesn't work in a case of murder, lol. It would if Lex magically ceased to exist, but he magically blew up first, so...

[DigitalKing]

Oliver didn't need to persuade Chloe, because she already believes in murder for the greater good, which has been made obvious this season and last. So when he was...persuading her by playing on her fears of Clark dying and saying that what he had done was justice, and when Chloe was saying "You're talking about murder" and such, she was just trying to get a handle on what he was talking about? She wasn't disagreeing? If Oliver didn't have to persuade Chloe, then what was the point of their conversations in the hospital and at Isis? Just formalities?


:lol: Oh so you were deliberately misrepresenting my statements? Don't be a troll. And stop fanwanking.Is Allison Mack also fanwanking when she says the dark things she does are totally Brainiac? Who's the real troll here? I'm not really misrepresenting you, I'm just saying you're wrong.


Chloe was "arm twisted" into agreeing with Oliver? You mean she was blackmailed, but you wouldn't admit that because blackmail only works if the person is guilty :rolleyes:I guess you're still not presupposing anything. Chloe is guilty, therefore Oliver was blackmailing her. Feel free to prove your premise of "Chloe is guilty" without using the word "obvious" or any synonyms. Continuing to beg the question simply makes it seem as if it's not even worth it to debate with you, because you've already got your conclusions written into your given premises.


That one kid was trying to say there's a difference between believing someone should be killed to save others, and believing the world is safer if that person no longer exists.I said there's a difference between killing someone and believing the world is safer if that person no longer exists. Would I murder Osama bin Laden? No. If someone else murdered Osama bin Laden, would I feel safer? Probably. Would I feel guilty about feeling that way? Maybe, if the killer was telling me that I should condone their murdering ways due to feeling relieved.

Like I said, if Chloe reveals that she was in fact Sebastian's killer, I will happily eat crow, humblepie and all that, while declaring between mouthfuls that it's the retcon of the century.

[unfocused]

So when he was...persuading her by playing on her fears of Clark dying and saying that what he had done was justice, and when Chloe was saying "You're talking about murder" and such, she was just trying to get a handle on what he was talking about? She wasn't disagreeing? If Oliver didn't have to persuade Chloe, then what was the point of their conversations in the hospital and at Isis? Just formalities?
Oliver wasn't some mastermind skillfully manipulating Chloe, turning her into what he wanted. That's a joke argument if I've ever seen one. Chloe, supposedly intelligent and a great hacker with great morals and strong opinions, being manipulated into believing something she's supposedly so against? No, she was putting on an act, when she realized Oliver can see through that act, she stopped with the act and agreed with him. There weren't any highly sophisticated mind tricks going on here, lol.

I guess you hate lightswitches that make Chloe look bad, but love the ones that make her look good. I remember when Adam was hacking into a database right in front of Chloe, and she had no clue what he was doing and couldn't provide her own assessments in the case. Oh but now she's the worlds greatest hacker that can hack into the most secure databases in 1.4 seconds using computers that aren't even capable of doing that, lol.

Still, I wouldn't call that a lightswitch, because Chloe was always an intelligent character who used computers before that incident. Just like how Chloe has agreed with murder for the greater good prior to losing that argument with Oliver.


Is Allison Mack also fanwanking when she says the dark things she does are totally Brainiac? Who's the real troll here? I'm not really misrepresenting you, I'm just saying you're wrong.
It looked you were saying "you don't like it when I intentionally misrepresent your statements." Leading me to believe that you were misrepresenting my statements, intentionally...

But it's alright. I laughed pretty hard when you wrote that :)


I guess you're still not presupposing anything. Chloe is guilty, therefore Oliver was blackmailing her. Feel free to prove your premise of "Chloe is guilty" without using the word "obvious" or any synonyms. Continuing to beg the question simply makes it seem as if it's not even worth it to debate with you, because you've already got your conclusions written into your given premises.
"Chloe is guilty, therefore Oliver was blackmailing her." I didn't think there were people that literally twisted words around, lol. I can't tell if you're just confused or need to change what I say in order to respond to it, but what I'm saying is simple. Chloe was playing the good girl act once again, but Oliver had proof that it was just that; an act. So, Chloe stopped playing that good girl act and agreed with Oliver.

How about you stop trying to twist words around and just respond to those words? I'm wrong because you can twist my words around? No, try to prove me wrong with your own words, not with mine. Here's something you can twist around: Chloe is guilty, and only guilty people can get blackmailed.


I said there's a difference between killing someone and believing the world is safer if that person no longer exists. Would I murder Osama bin Laden? No. If someone else murdered Osama bin Laden, would I feel safer? Probably. Would I feel guilty about feeling that way? Maybe, if the killer was telling me that I should condone their murdering ways due to feeling relieved.

Like I said, if Chloe reveals that she was in fact Sebastian's killer, I will happily eat crow, humblepie and all that, while declaring between mouthfuls that it's the retcon of the century.
You're right, there is a difference between killing someone (Chloe killing Sebastian) and feeling safer if they no longer exist. I made the mistake of thinking you meant there is a difference between believing the world is safer if a person is killed (Chloe feeling safer if Lex was killed) and feeling safer if they no longer exist.

By the way, you left out a part of that last quote. It was a rather important part, so I'm guessing that's why you left it out.


That one kid was trying to say there's a difference between believing someone should be killed to save others, and believing the world is safer if that person no longer exists. But that doesn't work in a case of murder, lol. It would if Lex magically ceased to exist, but he magically blew up first, so...

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

In any case, there's a clear difference between believing that someone not existing would make the world a better place and actually pulling the proverbial trigger. Lex has committed many crimes that, if tried and convicted, would likely net him the death penalty. He has murdered many, tortured even more, and his cloning programs show a gross disregard for human life. But for his wealth and influence, he has escaped what many (non-vigilante types) would refer to as justice. Yet Chloe still had to be arm-twisted into agreeing with Oliver's plan to actually carry out his execution. Remember, Chloe's mother was held by Lex and used for his mind-control serum. She herself was threatened and eventually fired by Lex. And yet she still initially condemned Oliver's actions.

its good that you mentioned this as i seem to remember chloe speaking to clark in "nemesis" saying she would have liked it had lex been left in the falling rubble that lionel had to be dragged out of, chloe there wasnt thinking about clark when she said she would have wanted lex to rot with the rats, she spoke of how lex treated her mother

i cant remember the exact quote but to think along the lines of "batman begins" what batman said on the train when he battled Ra's al Ghul the train was about to be destroyed in a fall, batman said "i wont kill you, but i dont need to save you"

people would say not helping a person is just as worse as killing

so chloe is just as susceptible to killing sum1 as any1 on this show, she isnt a saint

[Smallville Gone Bizarr]

I THINK she did it to protect Clark!

[DigitalKing]

Oliver wasn't some mastermind skillfully manipulating Chloe, turning her into what he wanted. That's a joke argument if I've ever seen one. Chloe, supposedly intelligent and a great hacker with great morals and strong opinions, being manipulated into believing something she's supposedly so against? No, she was putting on an act, when she realized Oliver can see through that act, she stopped with the act and agreed with him. There weren't any highly sophisticated mind tricks going on here, lol.

I guess you hate lightswitches that make Chloe look bad, but love the ones that make her look good. I remember when Adam was hacking into a database right in front of Chloe, and she had no clue what he was doing and couldn't provide her own assessments in the case. Oh but now she's the worlds greatest hacker that can hack into the most secure databases in 1.4 seconds using computers that aren't even capable of doing that, lol.

Still, I wouldn't call that a lightswitch, because Chloe was always an intelligent character who used computers before that incident. Just like how Chloe has agreed with murder for the greater good prior to losing that argument with Oliver.


It looked you were saying "you don't like it when I intentionally misrepresent your statements." Leading me to believe that you were misrepresenting my statements, intentionally...

But it's alright. I laughed pretty hard when you wrote that :)


"Chloe is guilty, therefore Oliver was blackmailing her." I didn't think there were people that literally twisted words around, lol. I can't tell if you're just confused or need to change what I say in order to respond to it, but what I'm saying is simple. Chloe was playing the good girl act once again, but Oliver had proof that it was just that; an act. So, Chloe stopped playing that good girl act and agreed with Oliver.

How about you stop trying to twist words around and just respond to those words? I'm wrong because you can twist my words around? No, try to prove me wrong with your own words, not with mine. Here's something you can twist around: Chloe is guilty, and only guilty people can get blackmailed.


You're right, there is a difference between killing someone (Chloe killing Sebastian) and feeling safer if they no longer exist. I made the mistake of thinking you meant there is a difference between believing the world is safer if a person is killed (Chloe feeling safer if Lex was killed) and feeling safer if they no longer exist.

By the way, you left out a part of that last quote. It was a rather important part, so I'm guessing that's why you left it out.
Hey, you've convinced me. Thanks for playing.:cool:

[Var-Zol]

look people, to end this deabte once and for all Brainiac killed Sebastian because Chloe had a nervous reaction whenSeabastian told her he knew whoClark really was. Since Brainiac had altered Chloe's nervous system, he fellt the electrical impulses in her system due to this response and took over her mind and body amd killed him so that He could have a chance to attack Clark in the future without any outside interference. SO PLEASE LET THIS REST NOW!!!!!!!!

[Fawbish]

No, this is a debate, and an interesting one. Why should it end because you say so?

[Malicieux Toutou]

look people, to end this deabte once and for all Brainiac killed Sebastian because Chloe had a nervous reaction whenSeabastian told her he knew whoClark really was. Since Brainiac had altered Chloe's nervous system, he fellt the electrical impulses in her system due to this response and took over her mind and body amd killed him so that He could have a chance to attack Clark in the future without any outside interference. SO PLEASE LET THIS REST NOW!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, your brilliant analysis has ended the debate. How could we have all been so blind!
:rolleyes:

[tj_powers]

If the debate ended then this thread would be done... thruth is they left it that way for us to try to figure it out and make us think! Smallville does alot of this to keep us on our toes so whatever you may think is not what another thinks. I think in some messed up way Chloe and Brainiac were both apart of it. Chloe during season 9 showed like she knew more about the powers and what was going on with her then she let on... in some way she was letting Brainiac take control because the power seemed tempting... its not the only girl on SV to make that mistake but they did it anyways !! Like i said before, Chloe seems alot darker even with Brainiac out of her system... but thats my own opinion

[unfocused]

Hey, you've convinced me. Thanks for playing.:cool:
Don't make it so easy next time.


look people, to end this deabte once and for all Brainiac killed Sebastian because Chloe had a nervous reaction whenSeabastian told her he knew whoClark really was. Since Brainiac had altered Chloe's nervous system, he fellt the electrical impulses in her system due to this response and took over her mind and body amd killed him so that He could have a chance to attack Clark in the future without any outside interference. SO PLEASE LET THIS REST NOW!!!!!!!!
I actually like this theory, however improbable. I don't like the "BrainIAC did it to protect Clark" bit, though. People say Chloe killing to protect Clark is OOC for her, but BrainIAC killing to protect Clark is even more OOC, for him.

[tj_powers]

Well not necessarily when you think about it. Everytime Brainiac came about, not once did he try to expose Clark... probably wouldn't matter too much I guess its like Brainiac himself didnt want to be exposed as an alien.. he wanted to kill humans without them knowing all the time... anyone else even noticed that!?

[oqllcksmallville]

I THINK she did it to protect Clark!
that doesn't justify anything .
yeah , she did do it to protect clark ,
but it's not an excuse to execute such a manner ,
times are rough but you know ,
she shouldn't have done it .

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

that doesn't justify anything .
yeah , she did do it to protect clark ,
but it's not an excuse to execute such a manner ,
times are rough but you know ,
she shouldn't have done it .

i remember when jonathan kent in the season 2 premier "vortex" was ready to kill but changed his mind as he didnt want to be a hypocrit from the very lessons he had been teaching clark as he grew up

and the guy jonathan was ready to kill was also going to expose clark

if a person like jonathan who was clarks ultimate protector didnt kill to protect clark i dont see why chloe had to kill sebastian

[tj_powers]

chloe is not a kent... and im gessing with so many attempted murders... kidnappings... attacks... brainiac infections... shes having a breakdown! lol

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

chloe is not a kent... and im gessing with so many attempted murders... kidnappings... attacks... brainiac infections... shes having a breakdown! lol

so thats a justifiable reason to kill sum1 since the protector of clark isnt a kent?

[Var-Zol]

Don't make it so easy next time.


I actually like this theory, however improbable. I don't like the "BrainIAC did it to protect Clark" bit, though. People say Chloe killing to protect Clark is OOC for her, but BrainIAC killing to protect Clark is even more OOC, for him.

HE'S NOT DOING IT TO PROTECT CLARK! He has an end objective to destroy Clark so that he doesn't stand in the way of gathering knowledge from the universe and destroying Earth! Brainiac is dedicated to collecting knowledge and self-preservation!

[unfocused]

Sadly, the Brainiac storyline is over and that theory never gained fruition. All that is left is for Chloe to either deny the murder with a straight face, or confess to the murder with a straight face.

I'm willing to take either one, but I know which one I believe in right now. But I don't want to see her deny or confess, and then have some crazy, still confused look on her face after doing so. I want her to be honest with no hints that she may not be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

So help me God...

[tj_powers]

so thats a justifiable reason to kill sum1 since the protector of clark isnt a kent?

Not saying its justifiable but not alot about Smallville is really either. What I meant by the Kents is that Jonathan was so tough of not killing anyone for any reason. Chloe never followed that same philosophy. Notice threwout the years on the show, Chloe was somewhat defiant on alot of things as well, including going against Lionel Luther for murdering his parents. She's been very devious without us realising she might be more dark than we figure. I always saw her going bad in a way for a while now. I think her killing Sebastian had some of her as well as with Brainiac's infection.

[unfocused]

Since season 9 is going to happen, I decided to read a few spoilers at random. And wow, there is now no doubt in my mind that Chloe murdered Sebastian with her own free will (not that there was any doubt to begin with). It seems they are finally doing something useful with her character, something exciting.

I'm actually interested in her story, for once. The Brainiac/Chloiac storyline was pretty cool, but the Chimmy story was kind of obnoxious, tbh. But finally, they have given her a story that we have no clue how it will end, because there are no rules with her character like there are with Clark and Lois. Doomsday can basically eat Chloe alive because there are no restrictions that would stop TPTB. And given these spoilers, I really can't see redemption for Chloe. There is a line, when crossed, you cannot return over. And Chloe will be looking for that line before this season is over. And from what I have read, it seems Chloe will not just step over that line, but she will sprint over it and probably never look back...

[tj_powers]

See I read the spoilers too but even with spoilers, the stories are left unsaid and I think they will clear alot of issues that has been left unresolved in this season. I agree with you that Chloe did it of her own free will. I even think she was more aware of Brainiacs powers given to her than she let on.

[unfocused]

Well she did take advantage of them even though she probably didn't know the extent of those powers.

[tj_powers]

Yeah well finally next week the show starts again so we will find out more about this. but the spoilers actually tells us alot! ( i wont ruin it on here :P)

[unfocused]

Yeah, the spoilers are pretty juicy (and kinda scary for her character, IMO).

[dru-zod2501]

I'm actually interested in her story, for once. The Brainiac/Chloiac storyline was pretty cool, but the Chimmy story was kind of obnoxious, tbh. But finally, they have given her a story that we have no clue how it will end, because there are no rules with her character like there are with Clark and Lois. Doomsday can basically eat Chloe alive because there are no restrictions that would stop TPTB. And given these spoilers, I really can't see redemption for Chloe. There is a line, when crossed, you cannot return over. And Chloe will be looking for that line before this season is over. And from what I have read, it seems Chloe will not just step over that line, but she will sprint over it and probably never look back...
As much as it sickens me, i think you may have a point; from the spoilers I feel she's reaching the last exit on the highway to hell.

[unfocused]

Have you read the latest spoilers? Oh my god...

[tj_powers]

yeah but I think we cant spoil on here so be careful lol but yeah things are just about to start unfolding