Memory Loss Opinions (Lana v Chloe) [Archive] - KSiteTV Television & Movie Forums

ktina

11-21-2008, 04:21 PM

(Sorry if this was a previous discussion point, haven't seen it)

Something I noticed during last nights episode was the contradicting opinions voiced by Chloe and Lana.

Chloe's line to Clark while they were dancing, something along the lines of a huge weight being lifted from her shoulders (i.e. when the memory of Clark's powers was erased)
Then Lana commented that she would never be able to forgive Clark for taking away those memories if it had been her.
Finally Clark comments to Chloe that he would never throw away good memories.

So, my question/ pet peeve is what the heck are TPTB trying to say?
-Chloe, who was his overly loyal and protective side kick, didn't really want to be? While Lana appreciates knowing so much more?

I guess I expect more consistency in ideas from the writing. If Clark is not supposed to want anyone to know his secret (to protect them) then Lana's comment made no sense? If Clark is supposed to be able to know he can trust people and not ruin their lives with his secret then Chloe's comment makes no sense.

Sorry for the long winded rant, other than that I really enjoyed last nights ep.

Disco_Lemonade

11-21-2008, 04:54 PM

Nice post. I've had similar questions myself. And I do think the writers contradict themselves a lot. But the fact that Clark believes he only erased bad memories ie. he would never erase her good memories, begs to question what feelings did he think were ascosiated with Chloe knowing his secret. In my opinion, Chloe was relieved to know his secret as she's always been on this quest for the truth, as that's her psyche. And I feel that Clark mind raping--since it was completely unwanted and permission to do such an act was not given, she specifically said she wanted to REMEMBER, not FORGET--Chloe will heavily strain on their friendship as soon as she finds out what happened.

And I'm thankful that Lana stood up for something in this episode. She stood up for her bestfriend and the Chlana that hasn't really been present in the past couple of seasons shined when she mentioned that she would hate Clark forever for doing something like that to her. I hate though that she didn't atune the topic more to Chloe, wasn't as vocal about how much that irked her, but I think Lana cares for Chloe and that really showed in the episode.

Back to Chloe again, in my opinion, I think the only reason she was glad about not knowing Clark's secret is that she's settling for Jimmy, someone she's with, again in my opinion, for the normalcy he brings her life, and the reason she feels like this burden has been lifted is that now she doesn't have to try to find that piece of normal, she's in her own mind, like any other average person. I don't think its that Chloe didn't like being Clark's side kick, as most of her good memories are of her and Clark bonding over it. I think it's more PS3 going back on what Al/Miles spent seven seasons creating, to make room for the comics. But whatever the case may be I don't think erasing her mind of what's out there was the best way to go about "protecting her".

eas

11-21-2008, 04:59 PM

Well, I think that Clark is pretty consistent throughout. He clearly sees Chloe's knowledge of his secret as "bad memories".

Clark's comment to Lana about the whole wiping memories thing was one of his worst moments in the episode. First of all, he has no doubts that what he did to Chloe was morally wrong. That's odd to me. (He even refers to it as a wedding gift.) Then he informs Lana that it would have been getting married if he'd given Lana the same "gift". (CREEEEEPPYY -- and incorrect, because she'd drive him batty with the 'secrets and lies' problems.)

He believes - in both instances - that these two women's lives are ruined by knowing his secret. He thinks they would both be better off not knowing and that he would also be in a better position if they don't know the secret.

There is complete consistency in the way he approaches Chloe and Lana. The only place his attitude becomes inconsistent is with Lois. In "Bloodline" he implicitly agreed with Kara that he should tell Lois is secret and he says that Lois is in danger because she doesn't know his secret.

I still don't even get that.

All about Clark

11-21-2008, 05:08 PM

I think Clark realized the burden aspect that Chloe had. She operated herself by that burden. Lana does not. Lana dictates her life to what she wants, not what needs to be done. I think all 3 women are individually different and the same rules can't apply to all.

And I think Chloe was just as happy. That even though she made an impact on the world, that it came with a price that effected her happiness.

Lana was always about needing to know and doesn't really see the burden. Because she comes at it in a more selfish manner, whereas Chloe came it with selflessness.

Disco_Lemonade

11-21-2008, 05:09 PM

Black Panda

11-22-2008, 12:07 AM

So, my question/ pet peeve is what the heck are TPTB trying to say?

1. Disregard Chloe, she literally doesn't know what she's talking about. She just had her brain rewired, and she's acting totally fake. Brainiac is just pushing Clark's buttons.

2. Lana is close to target. She wouldn't want someone else controlling what she knows. She's had to suffer that for years. People always protect Lana from unpleasant information, and it's usually to her detriment. Of course Lana doesn't seem to care much because it's not her that got hurt.

3. Clark really has to know it was wrong and is feeling guilty, doesn't he? It's not that hard to understand. So he's trying to rationalize it, reassure himself. Hopefully this crap will be short lived and he'll wallow in the self blame for this idiotic act soon.

Oh and interesting that the secret was what kept Clana from working, and now the fact that the secret was revealed was what kept Clana from working. Nice logic there Clark. Super Intellect any day now.

devilneedsaride

11-22-2008, 12:26 AM

Nice logic there Clark. Super Intellect any day now.

I laughed really hard at that. You're so right :rolleyes:

Atomic girl

11-22-2008, 01:31 AM

I actually thought of that as soon as Lana said that she wouldn't want her knowledge of Clark erased. Chloe said she felt like a big weight was lifted, but I can say that (as a former wedding coordinator for our church) a few days before the wedding if the bride doesn't just accept that things may not be perfect, but that the day will still be "perfect", then she really is overly stressed and she doesn't enjoy her day as much as she could.

Chloe's statement could be taken like that, or I feel the implied meaning for all of us could also be taken. And while it's true that she may have felt a big burden lifted, she may not have wanted it this way. To put it in exaggerated terms just to make my point.....If my child were really sick (think touch and go) and I was really worried about them, if they died (heaven forbid), I would feel a burden lifted on one hand, but I wouldn't wish that ever on the other hand. I think from things Chloe said before, that she wouldn't have wanted Clark to take those memories, no matter how much she may have been "burdened" by them. She felt the "burden" was more worth it than not.

Karafan1

11-22-2008, 01:55 AM

Clark letting Jor-El make Chloe forget the truth about him is blowing up in his face. Chloe is back in the fortress already and will most likely see Clark use his powers against Doomsday..But they could just say she was being controlled by Brainiac and won't remember any of it..

migo

11-22-2008, 01:58 AM

He's kinda right though, the reason Chloe got infected with BrainIAC was because she knew about Clark's powers and was full on helping him. He's fixing the problem that almost had her lose everything she knows.

Bizarrolover

11-22-2008, 04:51 AM

The difference is that Chloe doesn't know what was taken from her, but both Clark and Lana do. Clark aches because he lost a big part of his best friend while chloe is blissfully oblivious of this (at least apparently, because I still think it's brainiac talking there). Lana's memories were erased once, in Reckoning, and she went back to her resentful self, hating Clark for hiding things from her. On the other hand, Chloe doesn't think he's keeping something from her, she's happy and never doubts Clark. She respects his decision of not telling her about his secret (if there is any), just like it was in season 3. Clark's suffering comes from guilt and from knowing what he lost. I hope I made sense.

Newb

11-22-2008, 12:16 PM

alejandrita439

11-22-2008, 01:34 PM

i know :)
i cant wait january 15 :D

tmack09

11-22-2008, 01:38 PM

I am so confused about this line. Lana seemed horribly bitter when she said this. Clark knew exactly what she was saying and abruptly said, "that's it". What did Lana mean by this?

Also I love Lana's hair. It doesn't make her face look aneroxic. While Lana was getting stitched up in the hospital, I think she had tears in her eyes not because of Clark, but because of the pain.

I do believe Lana's working for Lex and Lex is still alive but that wasn't Michael's head that we saw. Also, even Lex noticed and commented that he knows Lana has feelings for him. We'll know more in January (what a long hiatius) and we'll find out where she's been. I doubt the Lana fans are going to like it. :\

im still trying to figure out what Clark meant by "thats it" like really, what was he saying?

umm...when did Lex comment that Lana still has feelings for him? lol...he don't know whats going on in that girls head, at least not last I checked...He said Lana hates him and that can out do love, but Lex is twisted so he would think that any feelings from Lana good or bad is a good thing...very twisted man, twisted indeed! :)

And I think Lex took her hostage, he did something to her or IS doing something to her...but I donno, we'll see in the next few months!

redkryptoniteisthebest

11-22-2008, 01:40 PM

Whew! I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by that line! And, why did Clark say, 'thats it'?

Alaska Young

11-22-2008, 02:12 PM

Their whole conversation was weird during that scene. I wasn't expecting any of them to say what they said and now I can't wait 'til January to find out.

amalie

11-22-2008, 02:24 PM

Whew! I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by that line! And, why did Clark say, 'thats it'?

He says

"That's it, it's all over, it's that easy"

Followed shortly after by Lana's "Maybe Clark Kent and Lana Lang just weren't meant to end up together"

I took it to be "that's it, we're over, it's that easy"

Just Another Guy

11-22-2008, 02:51 PM

I loved Lana for saying what she did. After what he did to Chloe, I was glad to hear someone chew him out for it.

Kreukie

11-22-2008, 03:29 PM

Their whole conversation was weird during that scene. I wasn't expecting any of them to say what they said and now I can't wait 'til January to find out.

It was a Clois anvil, the millionth one in the episode.:rotfl:

Diego*Chloe

11-22-2008, 03:33 PM

I loved Lana for saying what she did. After what he did to Chloe, I was glad to hear someone chew him out for it.

I know!! that´s why i really liked Lana in this epi. yay!!:rotfl:

devilneedsaride

11-22-2008, 03:47 PM

I loved Lana for saying what she did. After what he did to Chloe, I was glad to hear someone chew him out for it.

I agree, but I don't think she was vehement enough about it. I think in the real world any normal person would be livid upon hearing that he'de done that to a friend. And I was actually yelling curses at the screen when he told Ollie what he'de done and the supposed supermoral Green Arrow just took it in stride. Seriously. Writers. Think about what it is you're saying here.Think about what it is you're turning the hero of the story INTO. :mad:

tmack09

11-22-2008, 03:51 PM

It was a Clois anvil, the millionth one in the episode.:rotfl:

:lol: there were soooo many wasn't there...my goodness!

He says

"That's it, it's all over, it's that easy"

Followed shortly after by Lana's "Maybe Clark Kent and Lana Lang just weren't meant to end up together"

I took it to be "that's it, we're over, it's that easy"

The thing is, is that it was said in a question like "thats it, its that easy?" and Lana goes "No...blah blah Clark Kent Lana Lang not ending up together blah blah" lol
I just re-watched it and im still just as confused as when I watched it thursday night lol

RedKRules

11-22-2008, 03:55 PM

It was a Clois anvil, the millionth one in the episode.:rotfl:

I wouldn´t be surprised!! :lol::lol:

redkryptoniteisthebest

11-22-2008, 04:06 PM

He says

"That's it, it's all over, it's that easy"

Followed shortly after by Lana's "Maybe Clark Kent and Lana Lang just weren't meant to end up together"

I took it to be "that's it, we're over, it's that easy"

Oh. Sorry, I forgot that line. :)

Becc

11-22-2008, 04:22 PM

I do believe Lana's working for Lex and Lex is still alive

Why do so many people think Lana is working for Lex? Lana hates Lex and I believe would rather die than help him.

Billy Jor-El

11-23-2008, 02:27 PM

I question Lana is in league with Lex, but Tess on the other hand is a different matter. Who's to say that Tess is not so all loyal to Lex, and just wants all his power for herself. She teams up with Lana for a mutual purpose of getting rid of Lex for keeps. (and, yeah, I love Lana's hair in this ep :) )

I'm also wondering if Chloe's full memories were restored when Brainiac re-infected her at the Black Fortress, or whether she's drifting back into mental obilvion to be little more than Brainiac's vessel? Either way I hope for Chloe to regain full control and memories, and then confront Clark about what he had Jor-El do to her. I want his explanation.

Alaska Young

11-23-2008, 04:30 PM

Why do so many people think Lana is working for Lex? Lana hates Lex and I believe would rather die than help him.

I know! After everything he did to her why in the hell would she team up with him? However, I could see Lana using Tess for her own good just to take Lex down. He NEEDS to pay for everything he's done.

JEWCY

11-23-2008, 06:35 PM

about the marriage proposal in Reckoning due to her comments about when Clark told her about erasing Chloe's memory. Essentially, this is what Clark did when Lana died and then came back to life per Jor-el.

Lana's comment, to me, cemented this statement by her sentiment of saying how she would hate to not remember what happened in the past or who Clark was and how he affected others lives.

Any thoughts to this?

scifigirl

11-23-2008, 06:38 PM

Bizarrolover

11-23-2008, 06:55 PM

I agree that he clearly never told her. It might be nice if he told her during her arc. I think it would be good continuity.

Clark exchanged his father's life for Lana's in Reckoning (though not aware of that when he made the decision) so I don't think he'll ever tell her that. He shouldn't. I don't think I'd like to live with the burden of knowing that someone else's life was ended to continue mine and I don't think Lana would like to know that either.

scifigirl

11-23-2008, 07:37 PM

^^^ You're probably right. I imagine that Clark is carrying around enough guilt about his father's death for both of them. Furthermore, after thinking about it some more, it would just bog down her story.

Hopefulsuicide

11-24-2008, 09:59 AM

after watching this episode i see i underestimated PS3's ability to see past the show and to the fans reactions

IMO they have presented us with all these different lines about memory loss to fuel the arguement... they KNOW what they have done is a huge contraversy, and they LOVE it. because now, many of us are talking about it more, and looking forward to the next episodes so we can find out the consequences... it really is very clever

1. Lana's view very much echoed my own. though they were very careful not to have her directly tell Clark off for what he did to Chloe (which annoyed me. if i found out he had taken my best friends memories i'd be angry on her behalf)

2. Chloe almost contradicts herself.

CHLOE: you say that like somethings changed. clark trust me, we have been through too much together, nothing is going to make me forget that

CLARK: you're right

so those lines are giving fuel to people on the 'memory loss is bad' side...

and then...

CLARK: the important thing is that you're life is everything you want it to be

CHLOE: (slight hesitation and looks around nodding) it is. it's like i've been carrying around this weight, and i dont know why, but a few days ago i finally let go. like i can move on.

it's very confusing... i really dont know what we are supposed to decide from this other than that it's not time to decide yet :lol:

tarrow21

11-24-2008, 11:16 AM

I actually don't think Chloe or Lana are confused/contradictory. We know where Lana stands pretty clearly, but I think Chloe is pretty clear too.

CHLOE: you say that like somethings changed. clark trust me, we have been through too much together, nothing is going to make me forget that

The problem with this line is that the only reason Chloe and Clark have 'been through so much together' is because of her helping him with his secret and kryptonian stuff. Take that away and they really haven't 'been through so much'.

But my theory is that although Chloe's memory has been selectively removed, those things still happened (She has lived through it all after all) so she still FEELS like she's been thru a ton of stuff with Clark, but if someone was to ask her specifically 'what stuff have you gone thru with Clark', she might not be able to name it cuz she doesn't remember any of the Kryptonian stuff. She'll try to say something cuz she KNOWS she's been thru a lot, but there will be a blank space of what exactly she's gone thru.

Basically, just cuz she doesn't remember specifically doesn't mean she doesn't feel that they've been thru a lot.

CLARK: the important thing is that you're life is everything you want it to be

CHLOE: (slight hesitation and looks around nodding) it is. it's like i've been carrying around this weight, and i dont know why, but a few days ago i finally let go. like i can move on.
If it was her choice, Chloe obviously would never have let Clark remove her memories. But that doesn't mean she wasn't burdened by it. She's happy that she feels like a burden has been lifted off her (who wouldn't?), but if she knew why, she'd be soo mad and demand the 'burden' back.

Clark is the most contradictory character. All along he's been saying 'ppl are better off not knowing". And now he said "Lois was in danger cuz she DIDN'T know." omg, can't he just realize that ppl will be in danger whether or not they know his secret or not and stop trying to amend things by manipulating the wrong variable??

I thot Clark's line to Lana: "If I had [erased your memories too] I wonder if that would've made things diff. between us." was stupid. Season 7 was the only season Lana knew his secret. Nothing happened to Lana in season 7 BECAUSE she knew Clark's secret. Brainiac infecting her, Bizarro, etc - would've happened regardless. This is unlike when Pete was tortured because someone wanted to know the secret, and unlike Reckoning when Lana died running from Lex who wanted to know the secret. For the past 6 seasons, Clark & Lana had problems because Clark wasn't honest w/ her and kept his secret from her. Does he really think keeping her in the dark again would've "made things different" between them??

devilneedsaride

11-30-2008, 11:39 PM

Sorry if this has been posted somewhere else, I looked and I didn't see it but I could always be wrong.:rolleyes:

A thought about this famous (or infamous, depending on who you talk you) quote that Chloe says to Clark during this episode about a weight having been lifted recently. This has been generally assumed to mean that Chloe's knowledge of Clark's secret WAS indeed a burden on her and that not knowing about it has made her happier. This does seem like the obvious conclusion, however there's another possible explanation.

In Identity, Chloe killed a man to protect Clark's secret. Whether she was being influenced/controlled by Brainiac at the time or not is up for debate, but it doesn't seem like a huge logical leap to think that the memory of killing a guy would be weighing pretty heavily on her conscience. Jor-el would have had to leave out that memory when he "wiped" her of all memories of Clark's secret, so could she possibly be referencing her freedom from a murderer's guilt rather than freedom from the supposed burden of knowing Clark's secret? It seems kind of like a trick the writers would pull, to let everyone (and Clark) assume that it's about the secret and then later reveal that it was about something entirely different.

tyson08

12-01-2008, 01:06 AM

Great catch, I like the way you think!

smallvillerocks45

12-01-2008, 01:18 AM

That's an interesting theory. I mean, it seems apparent that Clark thought she was referring to his secret, but the truth is, she had a lot of other stuff going on that was just as burdensome -if not more so. For one, she was semi-possessed by Brainiac and Jimmy did not know about it (i.e. lies, deception, secrets), then she did "kill" someone and how much of it was her as opposed to Brainiac is up for debate, but it must have been cumbersome, nonetheless. I can't wait to find out what happens to Chloe next. One thing's for sure, life for her will never be the same again.

MrZeppo

12-01-2008, 01:44 AM

I can actually think of several possibilities for that in the reality of the show.

1) Chloe was relieved to be unburdened from Clark's secret.
2) Chloe was relieved to be unburdened from Brainiac in her brain.
3) That wasn't Chloe, but Brainiac all along and he's been pretending to be Chloe ever since the end of Abyss. Chloe is gone.

There are more, but they get more and more far fetched...

mjc928

12-01-2008, 02:04 AM

Not to mention she had a wedding to prepare for;). I would say (as obvious as it may seem) it's a stressful process.

Tompouce

12-01-2008, 05:38 AM

Great catch, I like the way you think!
I agree and I hope you are right, it could be very insteresting for the epi to come because we are so sure she has lot her memories about Clark. If it isn't true, well that changes everything (although I am certain Chloe's memories will be back anyway):p

Just Another Guy

12-01-2008, 06:01 AM

Actually, my first thought was that it was a stretch, but I CAN totally imagine Clark in an upcoming episode (hopefully after Chloe's memories were restored) reminding her of what she said. Then Chloe would sort of get uncomfortable and tell him, "That's not the burden I was referring to." And Clark would go all, "What do you mean?" and there would be a new piece of character (and relationship) development for the two to discuss.

Bizarrolover

12-01-2008, 06:43 AM

Knowing Clark's secret is not only dangerous, but a big burden for those who know it. I'm sure Chloe doesn't think it's a burden, but that doesn't mean she isn't sometimes overwhelmed by the weight of knowing it. She may say she likes the challange of saving the world on a daily basis, the adrenaline of being Clark's sideckick, but I think that, sometimes, it can be too demanding and very little rewarding. The proof is that, as much as she loved it, for four years, she put her life on hold, she had no personal life and she almost her only boyfriend in years because of Clark and his secret. I'm not saying she doesn't love Clark or that she doens't love to know everything about him, but I'm sure that there are times when she wished her life was more normal. This is something she would never admit, to herself or to Clark (she knows him well enough to know that he would blame himself endlessly for messing up with her life) so now that she doesn't know what she'd lost, she can express how she truly feels.

It can be that or it's just Brainiac posing as Chloe, trying to convince Clark that the memory wiped worked so he can prepare his next move. Who knows.

RedKRules

12-01-2008, 06:45 AM

I think it was Brainiac saying .... now that I have fooled you and your super smart daddy by erasing her memories, I can move on to the next step on the world domination, thank you farm boy :lol:

TheANIMAL (marcus)

12-01-2008, 06:55 AM

Lol, that is sooo Brainiac if that was what it meant.

DontCha

12-01-2008, 07:56 AM

Its probably both.

if she gets back the memory of clark's secret, she's going to remember killing someone and that will destroy her.

Even if it wasnt all her, there was still enough chloe there for her to know what she was doing to that man in the hospital. She was in control as much as braniac was.

The second she gets clark's secret back, that is going to come rushing back to her.

The writers are being very clever here..making sure its better for her character not to know the secret than to know the secret.

Fallen One

12-01-2008, 08:17 AM

All that matters is that she no longer knows Clark's secret. Thats the beautiful thing here. :)

RedKRules

12-01-2008, 09:45 AM

good thing the beauty of that won´t stick!

smallvillefreak24

12-01-2008, 02:39 PM

i wish it was... but i really don't think that's what they meant subtle has never really been smallville's thang btw does anyone think that they will ever address that she killed that guy

pizzahead2490

12-01-2008, 02:45 PM

i think it was chole knowing about clarks secret, it just makes more sense.

Just Another Guy

12-01-2008, 04:14 PM

Well, since we're on the subject, yeah, I think they will bring up the fact that she killed someone. Smallville is the kind of show that addresses such things. They've done it many times. I can't think of a single example, but maybe I'll remember later. Anyway, this would seem like a perfect way to bring it up.

As long as she gets her memory back, they'll be able to address it. I'm fairly optimistic right now that she will, and that's the important part.

Iluvgreen

12-01-2008, 05:39 PM

Didn't Chloe say years. I think she meant Clark's secret. But that makes it really sad. :(

unfocused

12-01-2008, 06:20 PM

Clark's secret was the burden, that was pretty clear.

thepende

12-01-2008, 06:33 PM

Clark's secret was the burden, that was pretty clear.

I agree.

Just Another Guy

12-01-2008, 08:34 PM

Why do people keep saying it was "clear?" It's clear that they intended it to come off that way, so we don't need to be reminded of what she meant. Of course I think she meant Clark's secret. The question is, could they surprise us by revealing it was something else? It wouldn't be a curve ball if it was obvious.

unfocused

12-01-2008, 09:28 PM

Just Another Guy

12-01-2008, 09:40 PM

Who said anything about surprises and curve balls? That's just pure fan speculation and wishful thinking. You have no foundation to base this assumption on, so it's too weak for me to even consider. And I'm wondering why anyone else is considering this.

If we're just going to pull random ideas out of a hat for the sake of our favorite characters, the least we can do is turn it into some kind of game thread so we don't take each other so seriously when someone comes up with a funny notion such as "it wasn't a burden on Chloe, even though decades of mythology teach us differently," or my favorite "Chloe is as brilliant as Batman!" :lol:
What are you talking about? The whole point of this thread is whether or not Chloe could have been referring to her kill. The obviousness of the scene in question is to make reference to Clark's secret. The speculation is whether or not they might surprise us with a totally different burden.

Like I said, I believe she meant Clark's secret as well. But it's still an interesting theory. Use your imagination, it's not that much of a stretch.

scifigirl

12-01-2008, 10:02 PM

Well, since she killed the guy to protect Clark's secret, in my mind, they are one in the same burden.

unfocused

12-01-2008, 10:07 PM

I use my imagination all the time. And yes, it is a stretch to believe the burden Chloe was talking about was NOT Clark's secret. All I have that tells me her visit to the Meteor Freak was a burden was that look on her face afterward, that look of disgust with herself. But after that, it didn't seem to bother her at all.

Let's weigh the two options: Which burden is more of a burden???
Years of being in danger and keeping an astronomical secret from the world...

or...

Turning an evil, powerful murderer into a vegetable....

hmm, that's a hard one. My imagination tells me no one is going to care about the evil, powerful murderer though.

It's an interesting theory, but it's coming out of left field. So I won't be entertaining the thought until I'm given a reason to.

SVsleuth

12-02-2008, 07:34 AM

On Lana's comment, a Clana fan's POV:

If you remember, before Lana knew Clark was a Kryptonian, she didn't exactly have a high opinion of aliens, based on her personal experience. I think Lana learning that CLARK is a Kryptonian, profoundly changed the direction of her life. Without that knowledge, she would have seen aliens only as a threat & would easily have worked alongside Lex to combat that threat.

Knowing Clark's secret changed her entire perspective. Everything finally made sense, & now she's in a place where she can try to help Clark become all he was meant to be. Lana wants to see Clark become the best person he can become, & knows he is the best hope for the world to combat any other worldly threats to humanity that are still to come. She sees in him what he doesn't yet see - the hero.

I think that's why she ultimately chose him over Bizarro - because she realized that if the real Clark ever were to set aside who he really is, and not use all of his gifts and all of his abilities to help the world - well, she'd actually be disappointed in him. Lana WANTS Clark to become all he can be. And now, I believe, she's working to help him do just that. I think she would never want him to sacrifice the core of who he is, in order to dote on her. She sees so much more in him.

And I think THAT's why Lana said she'd never forgive him if he took away her knowledge of his secret - because she sees that knowledge as what helped set her on the right path, instead of ending up fighting against ALL aliens, including Clark, not recognizing that there is a good alien among them who is completely opposite from those others.

Lana feels like she's found her purpose in life, & it is because she knows the truth about Clark that she is in the unique position to do whatever it is she's doing (that I believe is helping Clark). She would never want to be the person she knows she would have become without Clark in her life, and without knowing the truth about him.

TheANIMAL (marcus)

12-02-2008, 07:57 AM

Clark is being silly, he cannot look at Lana and see the person she really is.

I am not bashing Lana, i quite like her, but everyone has to admit that she was a bit of a nightmare towards Clark when he didn't tell her his secret.

smallville300

12-02-2008, 01:10 PM

these are the word chole said to clark? so i want to know what you think does this prove that clark did the right thing by erasing her memories or was it till wrong and selfish of him for doing this to her?

Imzadia

12-02-2008, 04:17 PM

First of all, (and pardon my phrasing, I'm Not being adversarial) How can you, any of you, even say that Clark deciding to have Chloe's memories of his Secret removed was Selfish of him? Anyone who has huge responsibilities or burdens desperately needs a trustworthy Confidante and alli. Clark Needed Chloe much more than she ever needed him. As a 'unique' being living on this planet, his differences always set him apart. Chloe's friendship helped him not feel so alone.

Their relationship wasn't exactly symbiotic. Of course, Chloe's knowledge was expanded by learning about Clark's extraterrestrial origins, but that only helped her understand the reasons behind Clark's often mysterious behavior. She understood that he used his powers to help others, so she made it her responsibility to 'cover' for him, even before he knew she had knowledge of his secret. Her knowledge of him also caused her to jeopardize almost every relationship she could hope to have with anyone else who wasn't privvy to Clark's 'secret'. It was a burden she was proud to bear and she bore it well because, as she admitted, it made her feel 'special'.

It IS a privilege to Really Know Clark, because he was taught by his parents, as a means to protect himself, not to trust easily. To be his BFF is a 'special' privilege. The things that Clark can do and the things that he gets involved in feed Chloe's curious nature. So, those are the 'Perks' for Chloe. However, she also had to stifle her practiced, reporter's instincts to protect Clark's secret. That is a basic part of who Chloe is, so sharing Clark's secret has Cost her as much as she gained by that knowledge.

Therefore, Clark is the one who benefited the most in their friendship. She was his 'go to' girl for just about 'everything'. That means he'll have to spend a lot more time figuring things out for himself, being less Dependent on Chloe. Her computer skills helped Clark get info. that helped him help others. Since Martha Kent isn't around, although Clark said it would only take him a couple of seconds more to get to her in D.C., he still looks to Chloe to encourage him when he's down and boost his confidence. So, it's Clark who has lost the most by letting Jor-El erase Chloe's memory of who he really is, IMO. A Totally SELFLESS choice. But, not to worry about this 'Situation', because according to some 'spoilers', Chloe's memories will be returned. Of course, I don't know if that includes All of what she knew about who Clark is.

unfocused

12-02-2008, 04:30 PM

The memories being a burden was not the only reason the writers wanted to remove those memories. There were other reasons as well. The memories/burden, as the standalone reason, wouldn't be enough for me. But the other reasons, ie. her safety in the long run and even in the immediate, Clark's responsibility as a savior and friend, a second chance for Chloe, the sacrifice of a good ally, are all good enough reasons for me to agree with this decision.

And I do agree, Clark lost a lot when he asked Jor-El to keep certain memories from her. He didn't lose as much as Chloe did. But what he did is called a sacrifice. He gave up something good to him, so she could be safe. Jonathan, Lionel and Lana have all sacrificed for Clark. Chloe would have never sacrificed for him, even though she says she would. This may be one of the reasons that the story has played out the way it has.

Just Another Guy

12-02-2008, 04:35 PM

Why do we keep talking as if the writers aren't in control here? If this is the only way to "protect" Chloe (even though Clark, AC, Dinah, etc. seem to be given the free will to choose for themselves), the writers just don't know what they're doing. If not erasing her memories required her to be killed within two weeks, then, well, the writers need to change the outcome of their story. They're in control, here, and I'm getting really sick of pretending Chloe's been done a favor.

However, I'm giving the writers the benefit of the doubt.

devilneedsaride

12-02-2008, 04:39 PM

Who said anything about surprises and curve balls? That's just pure fan speculation and wishful thinking. You have no foundation to base this assumption on, so it's too weak for me to even consider. And I'm wondering why anyone else is considering this.

There's no need to be rude here. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you have to imply that those you're disagreeing with are idiots.

I'm not saying that this is absolutely the answer, it's just another theory for the type of folks who like to ruminate on different possible scenarios. There's no real evidence to support it, but it would make sense given what we do know.

Didn't Chloe say years. I think she meant Clark's secret. But that makes it really sad. :(

I went back to check on this. She didn't say years, but she did say she could "finally let go" which implies she was bothered for a decent amount of time. It's something to consider.

devilneedsaride

12-02-2008, 04:42 PM

I'm just gonna quote what I said in another thread cause I don't feel like retyping it.

Whether not knowing about Clark's abilities is in Chloe's best interest is not the point. The point is that what happens within her own brain should be her decision and nobody else's. She made it clear to Clark that she would not trade knowing his secret for anything, and he deliberately went against her wishes in one of the most important decisions in her life. Regardless of the consequences, it was NOT Clark's decision to make.

unfocused

12-02-2008, 04:45 PM

Whether not knowing about Clark's abilities is in Chloe's best interest is not the point. The point is that what happens within her own brain should be her decision and nobody else's.

You have it backwards.

unfocused

12-02-2008, 04:53 PM

There's no need to be rude here. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you have to imply that those you're disagreeing with are idiots.
I wasn't being rude :confused: And I didn't call or imply anyone was an idiot. Try not to take my comments out of context next time, thanks.

Just Another Guy

12-02-2008, 04:54 PM

You have it backwards.
What does that mean? :confused:

devilneedsaride

12-02-2008, 05:09 PM

I wasn't being rude :confused: And I didn't call or imply anyone was an idiot. Try not to take my comments out of context next time, thanks.

Well, I felt kind of personally insulted by the tone of your posts, so if you didn't mean it that way you might wanna watch for that in the future.

Truce? :p

unfocused

12-02-2008, 05:41 PM

It wasn't my intention to insult you, or anyone else. But I'll apologize anyway.

And I love to debate. So I'm going to have to kindly and respectfully decline your truce offer so there wouldn't be any confusion should we wind up on different sides of a discussion later on.

Lol j/k :p Yeah, truce.

Iluvgreen

12-02-2008, 05:47 PM

I thought that Lana was because he reveiled that he erased herr memories already, in a wierd sort of way, because he said that they would've had a summer wedding at the Kent farm but he made her forget or something. Maybe I was wrong. I guess I'll have to watch the episode again. :rolleyes:

But I'm sure if Clark erased Lana's memories completely she would feel the same way Chloe does. Before Chloe got her memories erased she siad that whe was happy knowing. I'm sure she was. It was still a waight even if she was happy knowing or not.

Iluvgreen

12-02-2008, 05:50 PM

It made me feel a little more at ease with Clark's disision. But I still want Chloe to have her momories back.

Diego*Chloe

12-02-2008, 06:01 PM

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 06:27 PM

yes Clark did make a sacrifice, and he is going to miss her sound advice and help

but he also forced Chloe to make a sacrifice that she isn't even aware of... Chloe has had to sacrifice her memories, her feelings of making a difference in the world, and it wasn't even her choice

unfocused

12-02-2008, 06:40 PM

I think the word "sacrifice" is beginning to be misused here. Chloe didn't sacrifice her memories, for the simple reason you pointed out; she wasn't aware of it. It's not a sacrifice if you aren't aware of the offering.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

Lana?? how???

Chloe did make a sacrifice..... .do you still remember the reason of this right?? she was willing to take out Kara or Brainiac or whatever and she got infected....

and i can tell you more sacrifices that Chloe has done just that i can´t remember anything :p

What Chloe did with Kara/BrainIAC was a risk, not a sacrifice. And Lana sacrificed her relationship with Clark by leaving him so she wouldn't be in his way of becoming someone greater.

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 06:44 PM

if i rephrase it to 'her memories were sacrificed for the so called greater good' will you understand my meaning

DontCha

12-02-2008, 06:49 PM

I think Chloe needs to forget the memories to be able to move on in life. She certainly seemed happier and it would explain why she has no problem wit clois.

Just Another Guy

12-02-2008, 06:53 PM

Is Chloe just a doll? Why does everyone act like she should be manipulated however she can be, as long as there is a big, unknowing smile on her face? If Clark forgot his own secret, he'd be a lot happier too. But there'd be the consequences of a stupid decision and a big mess to follow.

Bizarrolover

12-02-2008, 06:54 PM

Lana?? how???

Chloe did make a sacrifice..... .do you still remember the reason of this right?? she was willing to take out Kara or Brainiac or whatever and she got infected....

and i can tell you more sacrifices that Chloe has done just that i can´t remember anything :p

Knowing that that could kill her, Chloe brought Lex back to life in Fracture to save Clark from dying with him and almost died herself. In crimson, she sacrificed her relationship with Jimmy when she defended Clark's wreckless behavior.

Jonathan, Lionel and Lana have all sacrificed for Clark. Chloe would have never sacrificed for him, even though she says she would. This may be one of the reasons that the story has played out the way it has.

I agree with you that Jonathan sacrificed his health to bring Clark back from Metropolis, and that, unkowingly, he exchanded his life for Lana's, but I'm not sure Lionel and Lana sacrificed anything for Clark. Lionel was always persuing an unterior motive and Lana's only sacrifice was leaving the man she supposedly love because the world needed him more than her. I never bought that speech, I thought she was terrified after the Brainiac infection and used that as an excuse to escape from a relationship that wasn't working.

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 06:55 PM

I think Chloe needs to forget the memories to be able to move on in life. She certainly seemed happier and it would explain why she has no problem wit clois.

she hasnt forgotten her memories of her feelings for Clark, so i dont see how

in fact if anything, id say knowing Clark's destiny made her realise she was totally out of her league which is why she gave up on him

miks

12-02-2008, 07:11 PM

Clark taking Chloe's memories was a big no no. Especially since 10 minutes before hand she TOLD HIM that she would never give up what they have gone through, or something like that. Clark didn't have to take her memory of his secret, he chose to. Chloe has survived this far with his secret and she can handle whatever else life throws at her. Trying to protect her has worked wonders! I mean look she's been kidnapped by Doomsday! I mean if she had her memories of Clark she would at least have hope that someone would be able to save her, but she has no idea that Clark is "super" so here she is thinking she's about to die. Either way you slice it, it was the wrong choice. He did it trying to protect her, but he didn't need to do it. Chloe has protected him many times before (and he's protected her) I think it was made pretty obvious, at the beginning of the ep. when she said she would never change knowing his secret and at the end when Lana said she would never forgive him if he did that to her, that this move was not a smart one.

unfocused

12-02-2008, 07:26 PM

if i rephrase it to 'her memories were sacrificed for the so called greater good' will you understand my meaningThat's not your meaning. You're trying to say Chloe sacrificed just as Clark did. But that's wrong. In every definition of the word "wrong."

Knowing that that could kill her, Chloe brought Lex back to life in Fracture to save Clark from dying with him and almost died herself. In crimson, she sacrificed her relationship with Jimmy when she defended Clark's wreckless behavior.
That's not much of a sacrifice since Chloe would defend Clark before anyone else. It's like sacrificing a slice of cake, even though you've still got the rest of it. And in Fracture, again, it was a risk, not a sacrifice. The difference between a risk and a sacrifice is that with a risk, you're only willing to sacrifice, but haven't.

I agree with you that Jonathan sacrificed his health to bring Clark back from Metropolis, and that, unkowingly, he exchanded his life for Lana's, but I'm not sure Lionel and Lana sacrificed anything for Clark. Lionel was always persuing an unterior motive and Lana's only sacrifice was leaving the man she supposedly love because the world needed him more than her. I never bought that speech, I thought she was terrified after the Brainiac infection and used that as an excuse to escape from a relationship that wasn't working.
Lol, Lionel directly sacrificed his own life to protect Clark. And this isn't even an opinion. it's a plain, universal fact. Lex murdered Lionel because he knew Lionel had the answers about the traveler. Lionel knew Clark was the traveler, and could have saved his own life had he told Lex, but he chose to keep the secret and die. In my humble opinion, Lionel Luthors sacrifice is the greatest sacrifice we've seen thus far on this show. Greater than Martian manhunters sacrifice even.

As for your Lana theory, well. As I've said before, I didn't find any evidence that her reasons for leaving Clark were because she was scared of BrainIAC. The writers clearly pointed out to me that she left because the world needs him more than she does. So I'm gonna stick to the safe side and stay with a theory that makes some sense.

Diego*Chloe

12-02-2008, 07:29 PM

Knowing that that could kill her, Chloe brought Lex back to life in Fracture to save Clark from dying with him and almost died herself. In crimson, she sacrificed her relationship with Jimmy when she defended Clark's wreckless behavior.

I agree with you that Jonathan sacrificed his health to bring Clark back from Metropolis, and that, unkowingly, he exchanded his life for Lana's, but I'm not sure Lionel and Lana sacrificed anything for Clark. Lionel was always persuing an unterior motive and Lana's only sacrifice was leaving the man she supposedly love because the world needed him more than her. I never bought that speech, I thought she was terrified after the Brainiac infection and used that as an excuse to escape from a relationship that wasn't working.

aah muchas gracias Belen n_n

Unfocused: In Fracture she was gonna give up her life for Clark meaning: she was gonna die for him that´s a sacrifice!! ;)

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 07:44 PM

That's not your meaning. You're trying to say Chloe sacrificed just as Clark did. But that's wrong. In every definition of the word "wrong."

.

*sighs* please don't tell me what i mean. obviously i was using sacrifice in a slightly different way. i chose the word in order to keep a flow with other posts, and perhaps a pedantic person could pick at me and the fact that the word sacrifice has connotations i had not intended to use

if i post it again with a different word maybe you will see my meaning

yes clark did lose something and he is going to miss her sound advice and help

but he also forced chloe to lose things that she is not even aware of... chloe has had to lose her memories, her feeling of making a difference in the world, and it wasn't even her choice

unfocused

12-02-2008, 08:08 PM

Well that's much better, and actually makes sense. It even parallels what I initially said.

And I do agree, Clark lost a lot when he asked Jor-El to keep certain memories from her. He didn't lose as much as Chloe did. But what he did is called a sacrifice.

also...

Unfocused: In Fracture she was gonna give up her life for Clark meaning: she was gonna die for him that´s a sacrifice!! ;)

That's not much of a sacrifice since Chloe would defend Clark before anyone else. It's like sacrificing a slice of cake, even though you've still got the rest of it. And in Fracture, again, it was a risk, not a sacrifice. The difference between a risk and a sacrifice is that with a risk, you're only willing to sacrifice, but haven't.

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 08:24 PM

:lol: well we almost agree then!

although i find it hard to refer to something as a sacrifice if it's an entirely unnessecary and misjudged one

some sacrifices arent noble either... there are people who make sacrifices all the time for others instead of actually living their lives happily, because they think they need to, when actually they dont

unfocused

12-02-2008, 08:29 PM

I think it's a clear and present sacrifice what Clark did. But if you don't, I can respect that.

Bizarrolover

12-02-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Diego*Chloe
aah muchas gracias Belen n_n

De nada, Diego! You actually expressed what I was trying to say better than I did. Sometimes it's hard to find he right words.

Stu.Kent

12-02-2008, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by devilneedsaride
Whether not knowing about Clark's abilities is in Chloe's best interest is not the point. The point is that what happens within her own brain should be her decision and nobody else's.

Imo this all kinds of wrong, think about it the other way: instead of taking the memory of clark's secret think about clark telling her his secret. Instead of removing a burden he'd be placing it upon her against her will, it wouldn't be her decision it would be clarks. Surely thats altering what happens in her brain against her will, yet this wouldn't be considered so outrageous would it?? Would you want to be told a secret if you knew that it would place you in all kinds of danger, change your life forever, affect every decision you make? Would you want to live out the rest of your life with that kind of a burden.

Imagine your a fire-fighter, you run into a burning building and find an old woman in a room about to collapse, you try to rescue her but she refuses, says that she wants to stay in her home with her prized possessions. She tells you she wants to stay and theres nothing you can do to change her mind. The thing is none of this matters at the end of the day your going to drag her the hell out of that burning building wether she likes it or not, kicking and screaming if you have to. So you see what Im trying to say is that you don't alway need permission to save someone.

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 08:45 PM

yeah, but he didnt tell her...

alicia did...

and what alicia did, was definately wrong...

and chloe was not in a burning building saying she wouldnt come out... if clark hadnt said anything to jor-el all her memories would have been restored, and there would have been no immediate death

unfocused

12-02-2008, 08:58 PM

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 09:06 PM

yeah but we kinda getting into the territory of minority report...

it's not a question of whether Clark should save her if she as literally about to die, its a question of whether he should remove her memories so she is (in his eyes) less likely to ever be in danger

Just Another Guy

12-02-2008, 09:11 PM

Give me a break. An old woman who wants to die-- or any such example, to spare myself the endless comparisons-- is hardly an analogy for an intelligent, competent woman who had made up her mind how she wanted to use her abilities. And why don't we stop with the "she wasn't supposed to know," "violation of privacy" babble. That's been compensated for time and time again, when the show proved to us a hundredfold that her knowing was for the better. "Blank," "Commencement," "Justice," "Fractured," "Persona," etc. I'd add "Mortal," but I'm sure you'd all blame Chloe for Clark's loss of power.

unfocused

12-02-2008, 09:14 PM

Actually, Clark did save her when she was literally about to die :)

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 09:19 PM

yeah i think you missed my point

its one thing to stop a criminal who is about to shoot someone, and arrest them for it... but it's another to forsee him doing it before he's actually done it and take him away... it's way too much control

same with chloe situation

unfocused

12-02-2008, 09:21 PM

Ginx

12-02-2008, 09:27 PM

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Just Another Guy

12-02-2008, 09:40 PM

I thought my analogy was pretty effective actually and I don't appreciate it being compared to babble?? Anyways your in denial if you think what Clark did was selfish or for personal gain which is understandable given the nature of the event we're discussing, however what is wrong is building up chloe to be some kind of godess type figure when in reality she was just a woman, a woman who'd been tasked with more responsability than she could handle. Clark operates on his own moral playing field and if he wants to kick your door in and knock over your stuff for the greater good then he's damn well gonna do it. I know Im starting to lose it a bit but it's been a long day.
Okay, sorry for the babble line. I actually changed it from "nonsense" because I thought that sounded rude. :lol: "Babble" seemed a little more jokey, but I guess it wasn't.

Part of your post is presumably aimed at someone else, because I don't think Clark is selfish for what he did. But as for this "building Chloe up to be some kind of goddess," I don't know what you're talking about. It does, however, seem to me that Chloe's been horrifically insulted since losing her memories, made out to be incapable of choosing her own path.

Let's try it like this, since you brought the scenario to mind: two firefighters charge into a burning building. One is a girl, the other is her big brother who inspired her to take this career. But it's dangerous business, and the girl is nearly killed. So upon leaving the building, big brother has her fired, and blacklisted from any such job elsewhere. ;) See my point?

And Clark doesn't have the right to "kick down the door" for everyone else's good. As your analogy pointed out, he has that right if some old lady (or young lady, or middle-aged lady, or child, or goldfish) is about to die. But he's not warranted a permit to erase his friends' memories.

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 09:42 PM

You said if Clark should save her. But he already did :)

But it doesn't matter, right? You think he should be burned at the stake for keeping memories from Scooby, regardless of the heroic deed he just did for her.

Ok, you edited your post, so I'll add to mine. "Way too much control." Is this a new discussion? Seems like it needs it's own thread.

Clark saving her was a good deed. it was risky. did it pay off? yes in that chloe is a least still retaining some of her memories, no in that brainiac took over the fortress

if the episode had ended with simply clark saving chloe by having jor-el resoter her memories there would have been no discussion

i do not at all think he should be 'burned at the stake' as you so dramatically claim. i simply think it should be acknowledged on the show in some way that what he did was grey. that he should feel some doubt/guilt/regret about his decision and it's neccesity.

Lana's statement that she wouldn't be able to forgive him, was a wonderful start. but i'm hoping that Chloe herself will be angry.

what got me so upset after Abyss was that it was portrayed as this ENTIRELY nobel thing, as though there were NOTHING wrong with it whatsoever. when clearly there are moral questions that needed to be adressed.

and what do you mean i need to make a new thread. Clark having way too much control over Chloe in this episode has been covered in several different threads and i don't fancy making a new one just so people can repeat themselves

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

Let's try it like this, since you brought the scenario to mind: two firefighters charge into a burning building. One is a girl, the other is her big brother who inspired her to take this career. But it's dangerous business, and the girl is nearly killed. So upon leaving the building, big brother has her fired, and blacklisted from any such job elsewhere. ;) See my point?

.

i like your analogy

abyss just sort of made me feel lik Clark really was becoming more and more like his father. no wonder he was proud...

Stu.Kent

12-02-2008, 09:46 PM

Okay, sorry for the babble line. I actually changed it from "nonsense" because I thought that sounded rude. :lol: "Babble" seemed a little more jokey, but I guess it wasn't.

Part of your post is presumably aimed at someone else, because I don't think Clark is selfish for what he did. But as for this "building Chloe up to be some kind of goddess," I don't know what you're talking about. It does, however, seem to me that Chloe's been horrifically insulted since losing her memories, made out to be incapable of choosing her own path.

Let's try it like this, since you brought the scenario to mind: two firefighters charge into a burning building. One is a girl, the other is her big brother who inspired her to take this career. But it's dangerous business, and the girl is nearly killed. So upon leaving the building, big brother has her fired, and blacklisted from any such job elsewhere. ;) See my point?

And Clark doesn't have the right to "kick down the door" for everyone else's good. As your analogy pointed out, he has that right if some old lady (or young lady, or middle-aged lady, or child, or goldfish) is about to die. But he's not warranted a permit to erase his friends' memories.

OK I see your point and Im glad you did change it to babble because 'nonsense' would've really ticked me off:p

Anyways I need to get my head together then I'll come back when I've got something really clever to say:D

Just Another Guy

12-02-2008, 09:49 PM

OK I see your point and Im glad you did change it to babble because 'nonsense' would've really ticked me off:p

Anyways I need to get my head together then I'll come back when I've got something really clever to say:D
:rotfl:

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 09:52 PM

would you believe it's 4.50 in the morning here!.. talk about needing to get your head together! :lol:

Just Another Guy

12-02-2008, 09:55 PM

would you believe it's 4.50 in the morning here!.. talk about needing to get your head together! :lol:
Wow! I thought I stayed up late. It's only 10:50 over here! I'll be going to bed right before the sun comes up in your neck of the woods!

Good night and good morning!

Hopefulsuicide

12-02-2008, 09:58 PM

:lol: thankyou... and i think i shall be off soon... i'm just a k-site addict!

minerva73

12-02-2008, 10:17 PM

Knowing that that could kill her, Chloe brought Lex back to life in Fracture to save Clark from dying with him and almost died herself. In crimson, she sacrificed her relationship with Jimmy when she defended Clark's wreckless behavior.

I disagree with the Crimson instance. Chloe wasn't sacrificing her relationship with Jimmy to defend Clark, she was just being a proper friend. If Chloe were to agree with Jimmy and said that Clark's behavior was unreasonable, then she would be viewed as the person who betrayed Clark. She knew that Clark was on Red K, but she would just be deciding to pass up her friendship with Clark for her own selfish reasons. She didn't know that Jimmy would be so hardheaded about the situation and cause them to break-up. She just disagreed with him (most likely out of default because she's a great friend) and Jimmy blew it out of proportion.

I agree with you that Jonathan sacrificed his health to bring Clark back from Metropolis, and that, unkowingly, he exchanded his life for Lana's, but I'm not sure Lionel and Lana sacrificed anything for Clark. Lionel was always persuing an unterior motive and Lana's only sacrifice was leaving the man she supposedly love because the world needed him more than her. I never bought that speech, I thought she was terrified after the Brainiac infection and used that as an excuse to escape from a relationship that wasn't working.

Lionel and Lana have sacrificed a lot for Clark too.

Lana Lang: Despite leaving him in Arctic, she sacrificed HER happiness to make Clark happy. In Siren, she was willing to leave the farm just to give Clark some space to live happily. In the first few episodes of the season (before Wrath), she sacrificed having a hot steamy relationship with Clark (like she did in S5 even in the brief period that she knew about his secret), so that she couldn't stand in Clark's way. There were many opportunities in which Lana could've made out with Clark in the loft, but she didn't because she knew that Clark had better things to do (and that even counts Wrath because Clark offered her that afternoon together).

In Season 6, Lana sacrificed getting in trouble with the Luthors and the feds by stealing a briefcase and trying to leave Lex to die in order to protect Clark's secret (Nemesis). She sacrificed having to continue living in a loveless marriage to rescue Clark in Nemesis when she finally decided to reveal the tunnel plans to Chloe which would release Clark (and Lex). She sacrificed having a feeling of security just to make sure that Clark didn't do something he would regret (in both Progeny and Rage). In Progeny, she told him about the loss of the Lexana child, but she told him not to worry and just to go. She could've told him to stay (like she did in the older seasons which got VERY annoying :\), but she didn't. She didn't tell Clark about her pregnancy in Rage because she didn't want him to go storm off at Lex.

Lionel Luthor: Lionel Luthor sacrificed his life numerous times throughout Seasons 5-7 just to ensure Clark's safety. In Mercy, he lied to the Apex guy (Lincoln Cole, I think) about Clark being the special one and said that it was Lex. Lionel could've ratted out Clark and lived (I think those were the conditions), but he didn't and just kept quiet and was willing to die. In Phantom, Lionel held the Green K up to Bizarro's chest (thinking it was Clark) even though he knew that Clark would be upset with him afterwards. In Descent, he ultimately took the biggest sacrifice by lying to his son (who had pleaded to be loved and was told that he was loved just a few episodes before) and got pushed out of a window just so that Clark couldn't be controlled (even though it was a ripoff and he just got his powers "taken away" :rolleyes:).

unfocused

12-02-2008, 10:18 PM

Clark saving her was a good deed. it was risky. did it pay off? yes in that chloe is a least still retaining some of her memories, no in that brainiac took over the fortress
Chloe is retaining more than just her memories. Had BrainIAC taken full control of her, it is likely she could have died right then and there. With BrainIAC in control, he wouldn't need her alive anymore. This was actually hinted to us when Chloe admitted she was being taken over by BrainIAC in Abyss. At least that's what I got from it all.

i do not at all think he should be 'burned at the stake' as you so dramatically claim. i simply think it should be acknowledged on the show in some way that what he did was grey. that he should feel some doubt/guilt/regret about his decision and it's neccesity.
We got a hint of this when Clark softly apologized to Chloe, and it was acknowledged when Lana said she wouldn't have been able to forgive him. And I'm expecting more of this later, when the opportunity arises. And there is more than enough time for this story to play out.

what got me so upset after Abyss was that it was portrayed as this ENTIRELY nobel thing, as though there were NOTHING wrong with it whatsoever. when clearly there are moral questions that needed to be adressed.
I actually don't think it was portrayed as an ENTIRELY noble thing, especially since Lana questioned him about it. Even Jor-El stated he knew it was a difficult choice. Not once did I get the impression that Clark's decision was an easy one, or unquestionable one.

fuchsiaRose

12-03-2008, 12:46 AM

Clark's comment to Lana about the whole wiping memories thing was one of his worst moments in the episode. First of all, he has no doubts that what he did to Chloe was morally wrong. That's odd to me. (He even refers to it as a wedding gift.) Then he informs Lana that it would have been getting married if he'd given Lana the same "gift". (CREEEEEPPYY -- and incorrect, because she'd drive him batty with the 'secrets and lies' problems.)
I'm glad someone is bringing this up. That entire conversation was just so OOC. It was stupid, lame, creepy, and downright morally revolting.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

He's kinda right though, the reason Chloe got infected with BrainIAC was because she knew about Clark's powers and was full on helping him. He's fixing the problem that almost had her lose everything she knows.
Yeah, "fixing the problem" by playing God! :rolleyes:

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

I agree, but I don't think she was vehement enough about it. I think in the real world any normal person would be livid upon hearing that he'de done that to a friend. And I was actually yelling curses at the screen when he told Ollie what he'de done and the supposed supermoral Green Arrow just took it in stride. Seriously. Writers. Think about what it is you're saying here.Think about what it is you're turning the hero of the story INTO. :mad:
Exactly. I'm not gonna give Lana any props for that scene because she basically disagreed with Clark's actions and then did NOTHING to convince him that it was wrong or that he should undo it. That was so lame. :rolleyes:

unfocused

12-03-2008, 02:03 AM

Seems to me that you're not going to give Lana her props because you don't like her.

But that's just my opinion :)

Personally, I'll give her the props she deserves, but I'll still be angry because she didn't really stick it to Clark. Her argument was weak, and even though it seemed like she cared for Chloe, she didn't really show it much after that. But then again, I guess it really wasn't her place to step in. It was between Clark and Chloe and Lana must have knew that someday it would be settled.

It was actually nice to see Lana defend Chloe like that. Like the true friends they've been for many years. But I guess there wasn't nearly enough time in the episode to let us see how that will play out. But I'm hoping it will play out really well in a future episode.

Bizarrolover

12-03-2008, 08:33 AM

Lana Lang: Despite leaving him in Arctic, she sacrificed HER happiness to make Clark happy. In Siren, she was willing to leave the farm just to give Clark some space to live happily. In the first few episodes of the season (before Wrath), she sacrificed having a hot steamy relationship with Clark (like she did in S5 even in the brief period that she knew about his secret), so that she couldn't stand in Clark's way. There were many opportunities in which Lana could've made out with Clark in the loft, but she didn't because she knew that Clark had better things to do (and that even counts Wrath because Clark offered her that afternoon together).

In Season 6, Lana sacrificed getting in trouble with the Luthors and the feds by stealing a briefcase and trying to leave Lex to die in order to protect Clark's secret (Nemesis). She sacrificed having to continue living in a loveless marriage to rescue Clark in Nemesis when she finally decided to reveal the tunnel plans to Chloe which would release Clark (and Lex). She sacrificed having a feeling of security just to make sure that Clark didn't do something he would regret (in both Progeny and Rage). In Progeny, she told him about the loss of the Lexana child, but she told him not to worry and just to go. She could've told him to stay (like she did in the older seasons which got VERY annoying :\), but she didn't. She didn't tell Clark about her pregnancy in Rage because she didn't want him to go storm off at Lex.

I'm sorry to disagree with you. Clark and Lana weren't happy together in season 7 (save for those ten minutes of Kryptonite enhanced passion while she was still keeping secrets from Clark), so I don't think Lana sacrificed anything by leaving. She just left, leaving a very unhappy clark behind. In Siren she chose to leave because she couldn't stand Clark's indiference and she wanted to give each other some space instead of staying and trying to fix things like a well consitutued couple would do.

In Nemesis, Lana didn't sacrifice anything, she stole Lex's briefcase and was going to let him die for her own benefit. The only thing she was going to sacrifice was Lex's life and changed her mind only because Clark was down there too. She even doubted for a minute, because she thought Clark would survive the explosion and only helped Lex when Chloe told her that Clark had a weakness and was going to die too. So she basically was going to let Lex and Clark blow together. That's not self sacrifice, that's murder. Self sacrifice would have been running away and hide in Shanghai or whatever without stealing ten million dollars from Lex. The only reason she stayed a few more weeks with Lex was because she wanted to plan her escape and assure herself a wealthy life.

Telling someone to leave while you are in the hospital is not self sacrifice, is consideration. She told him to leave because there was nothing else he could do, so why keeping him sitting by her bed all night? It's not only pointless but weird to have your ex sitting by you while you are carrying someone else's child. The same happens with Rage. Not telling your ex you are pregnant by your new boyfriend is not self sacrifice, it's consideration, or maybe shame. She made the very wrong decision of sleeping with Lex and Clark has nothing to do with that. She isn't saving him heartache or sacrificing anything, she's dealing with the mistake she made.

I have mixed feelings about Lionel, because his actions were always ambiguous and his motivations were never clear. To me, sacrifice is when you give up something you really love for greater good. You may say that Lionel sacrificed his relationship with Lex for Clark, but the truth is that he and Lex were in bad terms before he met Clark and the relationship continued to deteriorate because Lionel's ambiguety. I don't think he sacrificed himself to protect Clark either, because Lionel wanted the traveler to himself for his own personal benefit/glory and didn't want his evil son to get his hands on him. I don't think it had to do with Clark's safety, it was more about power and Lionel chose to take it to his grave before sharing it with the monster he created. Anyway, that's my opinion, I respect yours.

fuchsiaRose

12-03-2008, 08:42 AM

Seems to me that you're not going to give Lana her props because you don't like her.

Um, no. The reason why I won't give her props is specifically stated in my post.

But that's just my opinion :)
:rolleyes:

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Personally, I'll give her the props she deserves, but I'll still be angry because she didn't really stick it to Clark.
She deserves props for stating the obvious? Well that's new...

It was actually nice to see Lana defend Chloe like that.
You call that a defense? :lol: She basically made it all about her. Lana, Lana, Lana.

*yawns*

devilneedsaride

12-03-2008, 09:57 AM

Imo this all kinds of wrong, think about it the other way: instead of taking the memory of clark's secret think about clark telling her his secret. Instead of removing a burden he'd be placing it upon her against her will, it wouldn't be her decision it would be clarks. Surely thats altering what happens in her brain against her will, yet this wouldn't be considered so outrageous would it?? Would you want to be told a secret if you knew that it would place you in all kinds of danger, change your life forever, affect every decision you make? Would you want to live out the rest of your life with that kind of a burden.

Imagine your a fire-fighter, you run into a burning building and find an old woman in a room about to collapse, you try to rescue her but she refuses, says that she wants to stay in her home with her prized possessions. She tells you she wants to stay and theres nothing you can do to change her mind. The thing is none of this matters at the end of the day your going to drag her the hell out of that burning building wether she likes it or not, kicking and screaming if you have to. So you see what Im trying to say is that you don't alway need permission to save someone.

Well, first of all, even if he had told her he wouldn't be placing it on her against her will. She wanted to know.

Second of all, there's a difference between changing someone's life against their will and changing a part of them against their will. Changing someone's external circumstances is different from changing something that's an extremely personal part of them. I'm having trouble putting to words exactly what I mean, so I'll just extend upon your old woman in a fire example.

If there's an old woman who refuses to leave a fire, most people will agree that a firefighter should drag her out to safety. However, its universally agreed upon in the health care/legal system that if a patient doesn't want a surgical procedure done even if that procedure is the only way to save their life then performing that procedure against their will is assault and is legally punishable. What Clark did is much more akin to unwanted surgery than dragging Chloe from a burning building. What's more, it wasn't even an emergent, life-or-death kind of situation, it was preventative. That's like saying "Well, this mentally capable person doesn't want his "man-parts" removed because he likes them and considers them to be part of his identity. But if we sedate him and remove them against his will, we think he'll be less likely to get a certain type of cancer in the future. So let's do it!" I don't think anyone can really claim those doctors to be making a moral choice here.

Hopefulsuicide

12-03-2008, 10:07 AM

I actually don't think it was portrayed as an ENTIRELY noble thing, especially since Lana questioned him about it. Even Jor-El stated he knew it was a difficult choice. Not once did I get the impression that Clark's decision was an easy one, or unquestionable one.

Lana's sentance is the ONLY thing that suggested what Clark did was wrong, and she didn't even really say what he did to Chloe was wrong. she simply said if he did it to her she wouldnt forgive him... i really wanted her to say 'and i'm sure if chloe finds out what you did, she will feel the same way' but they did sort of make it all about the clana

Clark's kiss i dont believe was an acknowledgement that he was doing something wrong, i felt he was apologising for all the hurt that had happened to her in the past. but i guess i could have been wrong

anyway, after abyss i was very much angrier than i was after bride. bride gave me the glimmer than i needed that not everyone was going to pat Clark on the back for it like Jor-el did

so if you can believe it, i am a little calmer

it really is a matter of whether or not there are consequences and i was just so angry at the very large possibility that they were just going to rid chloe of the memories for good and paint it as noble

but hopefully they won't

fuchsiaRose

12-03-2008, 10:19 AM

Lana's sentance is the ONLY thing that suggested what Clark did was wrong, and she didn't even really say what he did to Chloe was wrong. she simply said if he did it to her she wouldnt forgive him... i really wanted her to say 'and i'm sure if chloe finds out what you did, she will feel the same way' but they did sort of make it all about the clana
That was my point exactly. It's silly to want to give Lana "props" for simply stating the obvious when she didn't even defend Chloe or investigate further on the matter. Clark mentions the mindwipe and Lana turns in into something about her. How typical. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile the real issue of Chloe's mindwipe being morally wrong goes undiscussed yet again.

Bizarrolover

12-03-2008, 12:25 PM

Meanwhile the real issue of Chloe's mindwipe being morally wrong goes undiscussed yet again.

YOu mean it wasn't discussed in the episode or in the forums? Because it was vastly discussed in the 'Abyss' thread.

If you mean the episode, Clark informed Olliver of this fact and he didn't seem very freaked out. Anyway, Oliver was the one who asked Clark to fix Chloe's problem in the first place (Bloodline, when he said that some things are just not meant for humans) so he trusts that Clark did the right thing, or at least the best he could.

Lana can't judge Clark for what he did to Chloe because she doesn't know the context in which he made the decision. I don't think she made this all about her, either, because, in the end, she doesn't know what Chloe would say, she only expressed how she would react, and that is resenting Clark for making this extremely difficult decision. On the other hand, Chloe has always been very forgiving and understanding of Clark's actions, she knows he makes life and death decisions every day so maybe she'll get mad, maybe she won't. We don't know, but given the history of both women in this show, Chloe's decision will be exactly the opposite to Lana's.

unfocused

12-03-2008, 03:37 PM

Nice post, Bizarrolover.

Lana's sentance is the ONLY thing that suggested what Clark did was wrong, and she didn't even really say what he did to Chloe was wrong. she simply said if he did it to her she wouldnt forgive him... i really wanted her to say 'and i'm sure if chloe finds out what you did, she will feel the same way' but they did sort of make it all about the clana

Clark's kiss i dont believe was an acknowledgement that he was doing something wrong, i felt he was apologising for all the hurt that had happened to her in the past. but i guess i could have been wrong

anyway, after abyss i was very much angrier than i was after bride. bride gave me the glimmer than i needed that not everyone was going to pat Clark on the back for it like Jor-el did

so if you can believe it, i am a little calmer

it really is a matter of whether or not there are consequences and i was just so angry at the very large possibility that they were just going to rid chloe of the memories for good and paint it as noble

but hopefully they won't

And that's why I didn't take it as an ENTIRELY noble thing. And like I said, there will be plenty of time for this issue to be resolved later. Knowing Chloe, she'll be very, very angry, although she might ruin it by forgiving Clark easily. Either way, it will be a secondary story to a great primary :D

SacredK

12-04-2008, 06:30 AM

Yes, I myself enjoyed Lana this episode. She was always straight forward, but she seems even more somehow in this episode.

gem65

01-02-2009, 09:26 AM

Well, since she killed the guy to protect Clark's secret, in my mind, they are one in the same burden.

That scene bothers me. In "Truth" Chloe was able to read everyones mind - EXCEPT CLARKS. How about the episode with Ryan - who had the ability to read only what's on a persons mind at that moment? He wasn't able to read Clarks mind - and that's how he knew that Clark was different. So how was this reporter guy able to??? :confused:

unfocused

01-02-2009, 09:44 AM

I don't know. Sometimes I wish a persons powers would be elaborated on more, even their history. I'd love to have seen more of Aldar and his past before he was imprisoned into the Phantom Zone. But that would have taken at least half an episode (which I would have gladly taken over that horrible Lexana storyline in Static).

Bizarrolover

01-02-2009, 01:36 PM

That scene bothers me. In "Truth" Chloe was able to read everyones mind - EXCEPT CLARKS. How about the episode with Ryan - who had the ability to read only what's on a persons mind at that moment? He wasn't able to read Clarks mind - and that's how he knew that Clark was different. So how was this reporter guy able to??? :confused:

Chloe's wasn't able to read minds in 'Truth', she was infected with some kind of truth gas that came out with her breath and forced people to say the truth. It didn't work with Clark, in the same way Ryan wasn't able to read Clark's mind. But just because some MF powers don't affect him, it doesn't mean Clark is immune to every meteor power. In fact, it's not the first time a meteor power affects Clark in some way. When the guy in 'Reaper' touched his face, it began to turn into dust (his healing power reverted it immediately). The same with the 'Cool' guy. Ryan was able to read minds from the distance while Sebastian could see people's memories just by touching them. Maybe the power worked differnt, who knows.