4 Years Thrown Out the Window! (Chloe/Memory Loss Discussion)

[SnowBird]

Has the Chlark love been deleted? It seems to me that those who were fans of Chloe and Clark have now turned their feelings for them as a couple into hate for Clark. Have the producers successfully put an end to Chlark with the stroke of a pen on a script? If that were their intention, it was an almost effortless execution...Is there anyone out there that still believe in Chlark that doesn't hate Clark? Just wondering.

[loislanechick]

Has the Chlark love been deleted? It seems to me that those who were fans of Chloe and Clark have now turned their feelings for them as a couple into hate for Clark. Have the producers successfully put an end to Chlark with the stroke of a pen on a script? If that were their intention, it was an almost effortless execution...Is there anyone out there that still believe in Chlark that doesn't hate Clark? Just wondering.

I could never hate clark..he's my sweet clarky :) But I'd rather he didn't do that to chloe..

[Kevin24]

Has the Chlark love been deleted? It seems to me that those who were fans of Chloe and Clark have now turned their feelings for them as a couple into hate for Clark. Have the producers successfully put an end to Chlark with the stroke of a pen on a script? If that were their intention, it was an almost effortless execution...Is there anyone out there that still believe in Chlark that doesn't hate Clark? Just wondering.

Actually, I thought people would have the opposite reaction after Abyss. I thought they would see how much Clark loves Chloe that he is willing to sacrifice their close relationship for her own happiness and safety. I thought Clark showed how much he really cared for Chloe when he did what he did. I was sad that he didn't restore all of her memories because I knew their relationship would never be the same again.

I believe that act showed how deeply and strongly Clark cares for Chloe but some people just see it as a selfish act and an abuse of power.

[kryptoniankilla]

I'm curious.

If she only doesn't remember Clarks powers and heritage. Does she still remember her meteor power? Does she remember helping the League? Is she going to continue helping the League? How could she without rediscovering Clarks secret? And what about her meteor infected support group?

I think Chloe would be a drastically different person having never known Clarks secret. But maybe I'm reading into it too much.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Were people this upset when the Meteor freak zapped Lois and Sheriff Adams of Clark's secret? I think it was season 4 in the epsiode Blank.

1) he took like a minute of their memory away, so it had no real affect on their character growth, mind or other memories. they hadn't known for 4 years and based their lives around it, only to have it erased
2) it wasn't Clark. so the morality was not so much in question. Clark's moral decisions will always come under more scrutiny because he is the one we are supposed to be looking up to

[Kalista]

Has the Chlark love been deleted? It seems to me that those who were fans of Chloe and Clark have now turned their feelings for them as a couple into hate for Clark. Have the producers successfully put an end to Chlark with the stroke of a pen on a script? If that were their intention, it was an almost effortless execution...Is there anyone out there that still believe in Chlark that doesn't hate Clark? Just wondering.


Still alive and going strong for many. While many are disappointed in Clark's decision they don't all hate Clark. I think once Chloe's memories are restored and they reconcile any such "hate" will be long forgotten.

[Hopefulsuicide]

i don't usually hold a grude... but the trust never completely comes back either...

[RedKRules]

Still alive and going strong for many. While many are disappointed in Clark's decision they don't all hate Clark. I think once Chloe's memories are restored and they reconcile any such "hate" will be long forgotten.

So true ;) .... I don´t hate Clark, I AM just truly disappointed by what he did to his bestfriend .....

[umm]

True enough. The problem is, what could compare to this? If Lana had forgotten her marriage to Lex? I wouldn't have liked that either, but I wasn't NEARLY as attached to Lana and Lex's marriage as I was Chloe and Clark's camaraderie. But the difference is, it wouldn't have changed the show. It would have changed Lana. Given the role that Chloe plays, very few things could have altered the show quite like this.
You're right though. A HUGE part of my distaste for this is simply because it's Chloe, and she seems the most deserving of something better.

I agree with your post! But still, be it Lana, Chloe, Pete, Martha or god knows which person in Clark's life who knows his secret, he has no god given right to mess with their lives, their memories and thus their identity without their clearly expressed permission, which in this case he wasn't given, nor can I imagine he would get if it was Lana, Pete, Martha or anyone else! He simply had no right to do what he did, no matter how noble naive, borderline stupid, his intentions were!

[dimeo782002]

So true ;) .... I don´t hate Clark, I AM just truly disappointed by what he did to his bestfriend .....


i don't hate clark either ... im not even dissapoiinted in clark im dissapointed in the writers ...PS3 although enetertaining it's the reason they are doing this that totally angers me !:mad:

[Lazy Boy]

I'm not going to read the spoiler part of your post.

Fair enough I won't use them with you in the future.


No, Clark/Superman should not play God, no matter how powerful he is or becomes. Regarding your number 2, I agree to an extent. But it is Clark's secret, and Clark's decision to allow Chloe to fight by his side. And since she did choose to fight by his side, she became his responsibility. I know you may hate me for saying what I'm going to say next, many people might, and I won't blame you... but I believe since Chloe was his responsibility, Clark had every right to make that decision for her.

First of all I would point out by saying that Clark is responsible for Chloe is like saying that Chloe can't be trusted to take responsibility for her own actions which is far from the truth. Both Clark and Chloe took responsibility for looking out for each other. As Clark has pointed out Chloe has saved him more times than he ever has. If Chloe didn't want to take the responsibility for helping Clark, she wouldn't have saved him all those times. Instead she would have did what Pete done and moved away. But no, Chloe choose to stand alongside Clark and help him with his battles (that's my girl!).

Secondly, if Clark had every right to make that decision, won't he have done the mind wipe a long time ago? But he didn't, why because he trusted Chloe with the responsibility of looking after his secret. So again, they had a responsibility to each other.

Finally, what Clark has to realise is that Chloe is a soldier as well. She voluntarily choose to stand by his side and help him fight the battles. As in all battles, soldiers get hurt or killed and you cannot take responsibility for that as it was their choices to fight in wars. I think that what Clark needs to recognise and accept about Chloe.

PS no, I don't hate you at all, just disagreeing with your assessment. ;)

[unfocused]

First of all I would point out by saying that Clark is responsible for Chloe is like saying that Chloe can't be trusted to take responsibility for her own actions which is far from the truth.
I'm not saying that at all, and it's not "like" saying that. I understand people want to throw in the human rights and equality argument here, but that isn't fair to neither Clark nor Chloe. Because they are absolutely NOT equal. It's fair to believe Chloe should be responsible for herself, but when she is Clark's follower, there is no way she can take full responsibility for the actions they both do or the consequences of those actions. And Clark is indeed the leader in this tandem, that means in life and death situations, Chloe is his responsibility. Such as a child is a parents responsibility. Chloe is an adult, yes, but in terms of abilities and leadership, Clark is the superior here. And I do hold him responsible for Chloe when they work together in dangerous situations.

If Chloe screws up and Clark dies as a result, the blame would be cushioned for her because we'd assume she didn't have enough power to save him. But if Clark screws up and Chloe dies as a result, everyone on this forum would blame him because he should have the power to save her. Being more powerful puts Clark in the responsibility position just as an older brother is responsible for his younger sister when the two are unsupervised.


Secondly, if Clark had every right to make that decision, won't he have done the mind wipe a long time ago? But he didn't, why because he trusted Chloe with the responsibility of looking after his secret. So again, they had a responsibility to each other.
Trusting to keep a secret has nothing to do with the responsibility of life. Clark trusts Chloe to be responsible and keep his secret, no doubt. But that has nothing to do with Clark being responsible for Chloe's life when the two are fighting dangerous villains. Don't get me wrong, if Chloe were to die in one of these situations, she could be faulted for it depending on the circumstances, BUT we all know iconic Superman would definitely take much of the blame, rightfully so. And don't tell me I'm wrong because I've never seen a Superman not take the blame for a death of a close one (Donner's Superman comes to mind right away).

And I find it unfair to use previous season choices as prime examples since we have new showrunners this year, because I can simply argue that Clark didn't mind wipe Chloe sooner because the previous producers wouldn't allow that. And that would just be too easy to say :p

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Fair enough I won't use them with you in the future.

Thanks for being considerate :)

[Lazy Boy]

I'm not saying that at all, and it's not "like" saying that. I understand people want to throw in the human rights and equality argument here, but that isn't fair to neither Clark nor Chloe. Because they are absolutely NOT equal. It's fair to believe Chloe should be responsible for herself, but when she is Clark's follower, there is no way she can take full responsibility for the actions they both do or the consequences of those actions. And Clark is indeed the leader in this tandem, that means in life and death situations, Chloe is his responsibility. Such as a child is a parents responsibility. Chloe is an adult, yes, but in terms of abilities and leadership, Clark is the superior here. And I do hold him responsible for Chloe when they work together in dangerous situations.

That's fair enough considering that Superman being the more superior being, people would expect that but right now I think he is still learning to be a superhero and I don't think he's quite at that stage where he can take full "adult" responsibility for the action of others. Which is why I think if Chloe put herself in harm's way and suffer the dire consequences (like a soldier would do for an officer if you will) that was her choice and there would have been nothing Clark could have done to prevent it. So I still don't agree that Clark should be held ultimately responsible for Chloe safety. Not yet anyway


If Chloe screws up and Clark dies as a result, the blame would be cushioned for her because we'd assume she didn't have enough power to save him. But if Clark screws up and Chloe dies as a result, everyone on this forum would blame him because he should have the power to save her. Being more powerful puts Clark in the responsibility position just as an older brother is responsible for his younger sister when the two are unsupervised.

If everyone did blame Clark, then I think it would be very harsh because like I said he is still developing as Superman. Beside if Clark dies, I'm sure that Chloe would blame herself regardless of what everyone else thought.



Trusting to keep a secret has nothing to do with the responsibility of life. Clark trusts Chloe to be responsible and keep his secret, no doubt. But that has nothing to do with Clark being responsible for Chloe's life when the two are fighting dangerous villains. Don't get me wrong, if Chloe were to die in one of these situations, she could be faulted for it depending on the circumstances, BUT we all know iconic Superman would definitely take much of the blame, rightfully so. And don't tell me I'm wrong because I've never seen a Superman not take the blame for a death of a close one (Donner's Superman comes to mind right away).

I think the difference between your and mine points of view is that you think that Clark should be able to handle the responsibility of an iconic Superman. I just don't think he is there yet and still have got a little way to progress.


And I find it unfair to use previous season choices as prime examples since we have new showrunners this year, because I can simply argue that Clark didn't mind wipe Chloe sooner because the previous producers wouldn't allow that. And that would just be too easy to say :p

Very true.That is an unknown, there is no way we would know how the PS3 would have handled it if they've taken the riens of the show earlier so no point in debating that as it's all speculative.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----



Thanks for being considerate :)[/quote]

No problemo

[Minela]

I just wanted to say if it had been Lois knowing the secret and helping Clark out all this time and than having her memory whiped I woldn't cry foul. I would actually be very happy because that would mean it would be right back to the mythos. And hey, she'll eventually find out anyway.

But I guess it's completely different with Chloe so I get the anger.

[unfocused]

Speaking of Clois, we haven't heard much about that in a week around these parts. It would be nice to have a little more lighthearted conversation about that crazy relationship.

I'm actually very interested in seeing how Smallville handles the Clois come the end of the series. Judging from the bold moves PS3 have given us thus far into the season, I can hardly wait.

[Lazy Boy]

Speaking of Clois, we haven't heard much about that in a week around these parts. It would be nice to have a little more lighthearted conversation about that crazy relationship.

I'm actually very interested in seeing how Smallville handles the Clois come the end of the series. Judging from the bold moves PS3 have given us thus far into the season, I can hardly wait.

Some of us on the other hands, can wait ;).

I doubt that Lois will find out about Clark's abilities anytime too soon. In matter of fact if there is a season 9, they will probably delay the secret for longer. I'm just wary that this might turn into another "Lois and Clark: New Adventures of Superman".

As we all know, the outcome of season 8 will depends if season 9 goes ahead.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I'm not saying that at all, and it's not "like" saying that. I understand people want to throw in the human rights and equality argument here, but that isn't fair to neither Clark nor Chloe. Because they are absolutely NOT equal. It's fair to believe Chloe should be responsible for herself, but when she is Clark's follower, there is no way she can take full responsibility for the actions they both do or the consequences of those actions. And Clark is indeed the leader in this tandem, that means in life and death situations, Chloe is his responsibility. Such as a child is a parents responsibility. Chloe is an adult, yes, but in terms of abilities and leadership, Clark is the superior here. And I do hold him responsible for Chloe when they work together in dangerous situations.

it sounds more like your talking about Ollie than Clark, but let's look at that comparison.

is Ollie responsible for his team? yes, to a certain extent. he ASKS them to put themselves in danger all the time. he makes ALL the decisions when it comes to what is the next hit etc, and they 'follow' him because they trust he is right

is Clark responsible for Chloe? i don't believe so. SHE puts herself in danger for him a lot of the time, even when he tells her NOT too. she makes a lot of the decisions of what to do next, and he trusts that she is right and so goes and does it. It's hardly like he is her leader. he is her FRIEND... it is completely different

Clark has a tendancy to think everyone and everything that happens is his responsibility. he has been saying it since the first season. the death of Lana's parents - he felt responsible. but the problem is, he isnt always responsible, and he doesn't always have the duty or the right to try and fix it. some things just have to be accepted and left in the hands of someone or something else.

I can understand why he thought Chloe's problem was his responsibility. Because Braniac was his responsibility. But he did not ask her to go and try to stop Kara. he never thought Kara would really hurt her. He had no idea Kara was actually Brainiac. He took care of Braniac after that. He didn't know until a long time later that Chloe was even suffering any side affects of her Brainiac attack, he didn't WANT her to keep using her Brainiac powers to help him.

How can he be responsble for things that he basically kept telling her not to do? that is completely Chloe's responsibility.

And he shouldn't be trying to fix things that are really supposed to be in the hands of someone else.



If Chloe screws up and Clark dies as a result, the blame would be cushioned for her because we'd assume she didn't have enough power to save him. But if Clark screws up and Chloe dies as a result, everyone on this forum would blame him because he should have the power to save her. Being more powerful puts Clark in the responsibility position just as an older brother is responsible for his younger sister when the two are unsupervised.

I can't see anyone being angry at Clark if he didn't get there in time to save Chloe, or he wasn't strong enough or something... we might be angry if her life would have been saved if she'd known the secret :lol: but i can't see anyone hating Clark because he should have the power to save her... that's something he would hate himself for and we would want to comfort him about...



Trusting to keep a secret has nothing to do with the responsibility of life. Clark trusts Chloe to be responsible and keep his secret, no doubt. But that has nothing to do with Clark being responsible for Chloe's life when the two are fighting dangerous villains. Don't get me wrong, if Chloe were to die in one of these situations, she could be faulted for it depending on the circumstances, BUT we all know iconic Superman would definitely take much of the blame, rightfully so. And don't tell me I'm wrong because I've never seen a Superman not take the blame for a death of a close one (Donner's Superman comes to mind right away).

Superman almost definately would take the blame, but it ISNT rightfully so. that's just because he is almost too good a person. In LnC ( i know you dont like it, but bear with me :p) he felt so guilty about Lois getting a cut on her head after he wasn't fast enough to completely sheild her from an explosion, that he broke up with her so that she wouldn't be in harms way...

... and they made him look like an idiot for doing it. Lois was of course angry at him for trying to make the decision for her, and trying to make out like everything was his fault when it wasnt. i'm gonna give you a few quotes


LOIS: So... What, you've decided to never let anyone get close to you again?

CLARK: That's right.

LOIS: No wife, no girlfriend, no dating. You're ready to spend the rest of your life completely alone?

CLARK: If that's what it takes.

LOIS: You're serious, aren't you?

CLARK: I'm afraid so.

LOIS: Maybe you should change your insignia from an 'S' to an 'M' for Martyr Man.

------

SUPERMAN: Maybe you can tell me what you're doing here. I thought we agreed you were going to wait for me.

LOIS: No, you wanted me to wait, I wanted to come. I came.

SUPERMAN: What if the explosion had been bigger? What if I didn't see you? What if I was in the dinosaur exhibit? You could've died, and all because of me.

LOIS: Quit being so noble. If I'd gotten hurt it would've been my fault, not yours.

-----
CLARK: I know there'll always be some danger out there, but I've given it a lot of thought and I can deal with it. So... what I'm saying is, if it's okay with you, I'd like to give us another shot.

LOIS: That's very sweet. There aren't many guys who can see their mistakes, let alone admit them. But, that doesn't mean that the problems simply go away.

You saved my life today, for maybe the hundredth time, and I can never repay you for that, but you also made decisions about how I should live my life and you never even listened to what _I_ had to say. I love you, Clark, but no one can be in charge of my life but me. Not even Superman.

-----

i highlighted the last part cause i think it makes my point very well



And I find it unfair to use previous season choices as prime examples since we have new showrunners this year, because I can simply argue that Clark didn't mind wipe Chloe sooner because the previous producers wouldn't allow that. And that would just be too easy to say :p

i agree... AlMiles did a lot of things i didn't agree with, but they wouldn't have mind wiped Chloe

[Doomsday911]

Her knowing Clark's secret put her in danger. im glad he did it

[umm]

I'm not saying that at all, and it's not "like" saying that. I understand people want to throw in the human rights and equality argument here, but that isn't fair to neither Clark nor Chloe. Because they are absolutely NOT equal. It's fair to believe Chloe should be responsible for herself, but when she is Clark's follower, there is no way she can take full responsibility for the actions they both do or the consequences of those actions. And Clark is indeed the leader in this tandem, that means in life and death situations, Chloe is his responsibility. Such as a child is a parents responsibility. Chloe is an adult, yes, but in terms of abilities and leadership, Clark is the superior here. And I do hold him responsible for Chloe when they work together in dangerous situations.
If Chloe screws up and Clark dies as a result, the blame would be cushioned for her because we'd assume she didn't have enough power to save him. But if Clark screws up and Chloe dies as a result, everyone on this forum would blame him because he should have the power to save her. Being more powerful puts Clark in the responsibility position just as an older brother is responsible for his younger sister when the two are unsupervised.

So, you are actually comparing Chloe to a child who needs constant supervision and shouldn't be trusted to make decissions concerning her own life and fate!
Even if it were so, that's Gabes job, not Clark's who has on countless occasion proven he is no were near the point in his development where he actually has the right and the foresight to deal with such major lifealtering decissions!
Please!!!! What he did, was unethical and just plain ignorant, which seems to be a strong and constant charactertrait with him!!!!

[unfocused]

is Clark responsible for Chloe? i don't believe so. SHE puts herself in danger for him a lot of the time, even when he tells her NOT too. she makes a lot of the decisions of what to do next, and he trusts that she is right and so goes and does it. It's hardly like he is her leader. he is her FRIEND... it is completely different
Clark's the leader of this 2-man team. That's unquestionable.


Clark has a tendancy to think everyone and everything that happens is his responsibility. he has been saying it since the first season. the death of Lana's parents - he felt responsible. but the problem is, he isnt always responsible, and he doesn't always have the duty or the right to try and fix it. some things just have to be accepted and left in the hands of someone or something else.

I can understand why he thought Chloe's problem was his responsibility. Because Braniac was his responsibility. But he did not ask her to go and try to stop Kara. he never thought Kara would really hurt her. He had no idea Kara was actually Brainiac. He took care of Braniac after that. He didn't know until a long time later that Chloe was even suffering any side affects of her Brainiac attack, he didn't WANT her to keep using her Brainiac powers to help him.

How can he be responsble for things that he basically kept telling her not to do? that is completely Chloe's responsibility.
The whole point of my argument is to look through Clark's eyes to try and see his reasoning. But it's obvious some people refuse to do that and that's just preventing any kind of resolution between us. We didn't make the controversial decision. Clark did. So to understand it, we have to look at it through his eyes, like I've been saying for days. In Clark's eyes, he is responsible for Chloe. Case in point.


I can't see anyone being angry at Clark if he didn't get there in time to save Chloe, or he wasn't strong enough or something... we might be angry if her life would have been saved if she'd known the secret :lol: but i can't see anyone hating Clark because he should have the power to save her... that's something he would hate himself for and we would want to comfort him about...
You said it yourself, Clark would hate himself. Why? Because he feels responsible. "And Clark is indeed the leader in this tandem, that means in life and death situations, Chloe is his responsibility." I still stand by my quote, very strongly.

Now, whether or not we believe he is responsible doesn't really matter. What we believe is just our opinion. And those come a dime a dozen on a fan site, to be honest :p Had we been in Clark's position, we'd make choices depending on our own opinion as well, and most likely get grilled for it just like Clark, no matter what we chose, whether if we chose to let her die, let her continue living a dangerous life, or give her a chance at a new life.

And given those three options, I do, AGAIN, understand his reasoning behind his decision.


And he shouldn't be trying to fix things that are really supposed to be in the hands of someone else.
I've been done with that morality issue for a while now. I think I've been fair in expressing my opinion on that already.


So, you are actually comparing Chloe to a child who needs constant supervision and shouldn't be trusted to make decissions concerning her own life and fate!
Even if it were so, that's Gabes job, not Clark's who has on countless occasion proven he is no were near the point in his development where he actually has the right and the foresight to deal with such major lifealtering decissions!
Please!!!! What he did, was unethical and just plain ignorant, which seems to be a strong and constant charactertrait with him!!!!
If all you're going to do is insult a character then I won't waste my time responding to that.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Clark's the leader of this 2-man team. That's unquestionable.
.

i question it... therefore it is questionable. i do not believe there is a 'leader' in a friendship. not even one with Superman. and friendship isn't a friendship if one is the leader...



The whole point of my argument is to look through Clark's eyes to try and see his reasoning. But it's obvious some people refuse to do that and that's just preventing any kind of resolution between us. We didn't make the controversial decision. Clark did. So to understand it, we have to look at it through his eyes, like I've been saying for days. In Clark's eyes, he is responsible for Chloe. Case in point..

as i have said before, i know what he was thinking... but it doesnt make him right, it makes him look like an idiot who doesn't have a properly developed sense of morality or human rights. which i think is wrong of the writers to do.



Now, whether or not we believe he is responsible doesn't really matter..

it so completely does matter. the opinions of the fans, the audiences ability to relate and agree with the decisions that the character makes... of course it matters

i have NEVER so strongly disagreed with the main characters decision before, and i have never come across a show that made such a bad decision out to be a good one...

i know what you are trying to say. he thinks he is responsible for her. he thinks she is in danger. he thinks he is effectively saving her life. he thinks she is better off. he thinks he is doing the right thing. so he is right to make that decision.

but it's NOT right. i would never call Clark malicious. i would never think he was doing anything to hurt her. but to me the eppie makes him look really bad, and i don't want them doing that with him... Clark Kent is a most incredible character, that they are making holes in

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

You saved my life today, for maybe the hundredth time, and I can never repay you for that, but you also made decisions about how I should live my life and you never even listened to what _I_ had to say. I love you, Clark, but no one can be in charge of my life but me. Not even Superman.

i just wanna post this again, cause i think it's perfect

[unfocused]

i question it... therefore it is questionable. i do not believe there is a 'leader' in a friendship. not even one with Superman. and friendship isn't a friendship if one is the leader...
I'm not talking about their friendship. At least attempt to read what I'm telling you. I'm talking about their teamwork when fighting crime. YES Clark is the leader of their crime fighting team. You even admit that every time YOU call Chloe his "sidekick."

And anybody can question anything they want if simply for the fact that they don't understand it. And that's what I'm getting from you, you don't understand it, even if you say you do.


it so completely does matter. the opinions of the fans, the audiences ability to relate and agree with the decisions that the character makes... of course it matters
Here's the fault in your argument. You keep looking at this from a fan/audience perspective when I keep telling you to look at it from Clark's point of view. And when you claim that you do and see I am making sense, you have nothing else to fall back on except for the morality trip. Because from Clark's point of view, there was no better decision to make, the right thing to do doesn't always mean it's the moral thing to do. But I guess you're going to pretend you didn't read that last sentence and, AGAIN, come at me with another "it was immoral! Therefore it was not right!" Vigilantes live outside the law. That's immoral but please, tell me it isn't right to be a superhero :)

The opinions of fans matter, dearly. But from a characters point of view... there are no fans or audiences. Because he is simply a character portraying a real person in his written world.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I'm not talking about their friendship. At least attempt to read what I'm telling you. I'm talking about their teamwork when fighting crime. YES Clark is the leader of their crime fighting team. You even admit that every time YOU call Chloe his "sidekick."

And anybody can question anything they want if simply for the fact that they don't understand it. And that's what I'm getting from you, you don't understand it, even if you say you do.
.

seriously, are you actually suggesting that there is no other opinion but your own? i simply do not agree with what you are saying. i understand perfectly well what you are saying, i just don't agree with you...

mainly because i don't percieve them as a crime fighting team at all. that's not at all how they have been portrayed over the years. when chloe helps him out, it is usually to save someone they both know. the times she has helped him out in order for him to save the world, it has been to help HIM out. and when she needs him to help her out, he does. i just really can't see them as akin to batman and robin... and even in that duo, there was a struggle for equality (though it was never really gained).




Here's the fault in your argument. You keep looking at this from a fan/audience perspective when I keep telling you to look at it from Clark's point of view. And when you claim that you do and see I am making sense, you have nothing else to fall back on except for the morality trip. Because from Clark's point of view, there was no better decision to make, the right thing to do doesn't always mean it's the moral thing to do. But I guess you're going to pretend you didn't read that last sentence and, AGAIN, come at me with another "it was immoral! Therefore it was not right!" Vigilantes live outside the law. That's immoral but please, tell me it isn't right to be a superhero :)

The opinions of fans matter, dearly. But from a characters point of view... there are no fans or audiences. Because he is simply a character portraying a real person in his written world.

actually i think, since you have agreed that it is immoral and that it may not lead to anything good, that this 'through clark's eyes' arguement is all you can fall back on

the point i keep making to you is this... 'what the hell does it matter that Clark thinks it's right... how does that make it the right decision? how does the fact that he thought he was doing the right think mean it's the right thing to do? his opinion on the matter doesn't make it better. YES HE THOUGHT HE WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING... AND? can you please make a point with that?

i mean i could understand you banging out about him thinking it was right if i were attacking Clark's good nature. but i'm NOT!

so since the only arguements i have made are a) it is immoral and b) it was an unintelligent decision, how is 'he thought it was the right decision' a good return arguement?

p.s. i don't consider all law breaking immoral, and some things that are immoral arent against the law... vigilantes CAN be moral, and CAN be immoral... it's not fixed

[unfocused]

One of the most important aspects of Smallville is the fight of good against evil. It's one of my favorites things about Smallville, to see Clark and Chloe team up to bring down the bad guys. They work together in much the same way as Chloe worked for Oliver and his team. You aren't giving Chloe the respect in her duties that she deserves. She plays an extremely important role in the teamwork her and Clark have, and I find your argument that this isn't a team effort to be contradicting yourself as a self proclaimed fan of Chloe's.


the point i keep making to you is this... 'what the hell does it matter that Clark thinks it's right... how does that make it the right decision? how does the fact that he thought he was doing the right think mean it's the right thing to do? his opinion on the matter doesn't make it better. YES HE THOUGHT HE WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING... AND? can you please make a point with that?
I thought it was the right thing to do as well. Because I looked through his eyes and weighed his choices. I really couldn't see any better decision he could have made. That's why I believe he made the best choice.

Letting Chloe keep her memories would have been a really stupid thing to do. Especially after seeing the extreme dangers of it. No, it wasn't Clark's decision to make. But that doesn't matter when a person's life is on the line.

See, what you're saying is it's OK to let a friend commit suicide, because it is their choice. And that is a ridiculous thing to believe. I would overpower any one of my friends if it meant to save their life, no matter if they wanted me to or not. I'm guessing this is the difference between you and I. You'd let a friend make that choice, and I wouldn't.

[SteveS]

It was his intention to do right by Chloe, but I have my doubts as do Lana, GA, and I would bet Chloe when she gets her own mind back in working order.

[Sweetie]

Yes,it was the right thing to do.You got to understand that he didn't do this because he wanted to but,because he didn't have any other choice.His secret became a burden in Chloe's life,she sacrificed her dreams,her projects and put her lovelife on hold for him.It was a big mistake from the writers,she should have never find out on the first place.It was too much to handle for her.

[Hopefulsuicide]

always depends on the situation

would i allow my best friend to comit suicide if they were suffering a terminal illness and were in a lot of pain? YES. Would i allow my friend to comitt suicide if their boyfriend had dumped them? NO. Would i allow my best friend to keep her memories about something that could eventually get her hurt or killed? YES.

p.s. is it suddenly okay to use the word stupid? cause i was under the impression such words were offensive to you...

anyway, that's really all i have to say on the matter, cause this arguement is getting ridiculously personal... it's not an arguement that anyone is going to enjoy reading anymore...

[unfocused]

This topic is still around? :rolleyes:

p.s. Relax, I was calling a decision "stupid," not a person, character, alien, android or civilization :lol:

[Doomsday911]

Yes,it was the right thing to do.You got to understand that he didn't do this because he wanted to but,because he didn't have any other choice.His secret became a burden in Chloe's life,she sacrificed her dreams,her projects and put her lovelife on hold for him.It was a big mistake from the writers,she should have never find out on the first place.It was too much to handle for her.

as i said...

[HalJordan4184]

Yes,it was the right thing to do.You got to understand that he didn't do this because he wanted to but,because he didn't have any other choice.His secret became a burden in Chloe's life,she sacrificed her dreams,her projects and put her lovelife on hold for him.It was a big mistake from the writers,she should have never find out on the first place.It was too much to handle for her.

That's life. We don't get to go back and change that. In fact, Chloe seemed to be doing quite okay herself, and didn't want Clark to do this. CLark did this, because it's what Clark wanted. He didn't consider Chloe's actual feelings, he considered what he WANTED Chloe's feelings to be.

I hihgly doubt the writers did this, to show Clark making forward progress. This was a step backwards for him. Where does it stop now? Is he allowed to simply mind wipe anyone, anytime he thinks they shouldn't remember something because it's a burden, and painful. Is he going to go take Martha to the fortress, and have her erase her memories of Jonathon, because of the pain of his death? It'd be easier on her afterall, and would alleviate the pain and burden his death put on her.

[hottielottie123]

AHHH! it made me so sad and mad! .. i like when clarke is all bad ass.. lol hes cooler that way .. but that sucks balls that chloe doesnt know his secret .. cuz now hes alone!
i think that out of all the actors/actresses .. alison mack (chloe) is the best :)

[dimefan90]

the reason they had the flashbacks of chloe and clark was because they were best friends before she found out his secret, plus its CHLOE, before she found out, she was always investigating, what makes you think she wont find out this time. if she knows his secret, she will die, in my opinion. no one should know clarks secret except for fellow heroes

[devilneedsaride]

Despite the whole whose-decision-it-was debate (which I maintain is the most important part of all this) Clark's original reasoning of "Chloe will be safer if she doesn't know" is completely faulty.

It's not knowing his secret that puts people in danger, it's being around him. When people are around Clark they are constantly getting pulled into the whole meteor freak, Kryptonian man-eating cabbage sort of thing that's just constantly in his orbit. Take Lana for example. She didn't know his secret until mid-season 6 and I can safely say that the vast majority of the danger she suffered was in the early seasons when she didn't have the vaguest idea. The only really concrete example I can think of where knowing "the secret" directly put someone in danger was Pete's torturing at the end of season three that made him leave. With everyone else, it can be easily explained as proximity to Clark and all of his fun and exciting enemies, rather than knowledge of his secret.

I truely believe that Chloe is in more danger now than she was before. Being Clark's close friend but not knowing his secret is like trying to play football when you don't know the rules of the game. Sure, you can point to the big guys trying to body-slam you and figure that you should probably try to avoid them, but you don't know who to pass to and you can't coordinate your plays. Whereas before all this madness, big hulking man with gun/bomb/death ray meteor power would attack Chloe and she would know to call/scream for Clark, now he attacks her and she goes "Oh crap, hit him with a vase and run". And I think we all know that that's much less effective. I don't know how Clark got the idea that knowing his secret is the big thing that keeps getting people in his life hurt, but he's completely wrong. If he REALLY wanted to go hardcore on this idea of not accidentally bringing anything into people's lives that could possibly hurt them, he'de have to take a page out fo Kyle Tippet's book and go live in a hut somewhere, because what's hurting people is the crap he inadvertently drags with him.




Here's the fault in your argument. You keep looking at this from a fan/audience perspective when I keep telling you to look at it from Clark's point of view. And when you claim that you do and see I am making sense, you have nothing else to fall back on except for the morality trip. Because from Clark's point of view, there was no better decision to make, the right thing to do doesn't always mean it's the moral thing to do. But I guess you're going to pretend you didn't read that last sentence and, AGAIN, come at me with another "it was immoral! Therefore it was not right!" Vigilantes live outside the law. That's immoral but please, tell me it isn't right to be a superhero :)

I'm pretty sure I'm nitpicking here, but technically you are incorrect.

moral(adj) - founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom

ethical(adj) - conforming to accepted standards of social or professional behavior

Something that is immoral is not right, by definition. Being a superhero and living outside the law is unethical, but not necessarily immoral, as you point out. Therefore, when people challenge your claims by saying that what Clark did was immoral, they are directly challenging your statement that what he did was the right thing to do, rather than sidestepping the issue.

This is what alternating between writing scientific papers and debating Smallville logic at 6 in the morning will do to you. :rolleyes:

[Hopefulsuicide]

great post devilneedsaride!

i totally agree with you that proximity to Clark is the problem, not knowing his secret

which is exactly one of the reasons he gets a secret identity in the first place. so that people who want to hurt 'superman' don't have a clue who he really is and who he cares about in his life (with the exception being Lois who is so Superman obsessed that the whole world knows about it :lol:).

look at Martha. is she in danger all the time? NO! she is not even heard from, and she will be absolutely safe... whereas Chloe, who now doesn't know the secret, is in danger RIGHT NOW, and why? because of Clark's problems and the fact she is still around it, now blindly however

[devilneedsaride]

great post devilneedsaride!

i totally agree with you that proximity to Clark is the problem, not knowing his secret

which is exactly one of the reasons he gets a secret identity in the first place. so that people who want to hurt 'superman' don't have a clue who he really is and who he cares about in his life (with the exception being Lois who is so Superman obsessed that the whole world knows about it :lol:).

look at Martha. is she in danger all the time? NO! she is not even heard from, and she will be absolutely safe... whereas Chloe, who now doesn't know the secret, is in danger RIGHT NOW, and why? because of Clark's problems and the fact she is still around it, now blindly however

Thanks :)

That's another great example. Martha knows his secret but is living in Washington D.C. or wherever, and she's perfectly fine. Pete knows his secret and is only as far away as Granville, and he's perfectly fine. It stands to reason that if Chloe thought his alien freak show was too much danger/emotional baggage for her she could have just said goodbye and gone to live in Tennessee or Australia or wherever and had 2.4 kids, a white picket fence, and a golden retriever named "Fido". But again, that was her decision to make. And the fact that she didn't even consider such a thing speaks to how much she doesn't want that to be her life, and now Clark's essentially trying to force her into normalcy to make himself feel better. It's not right on so many levels.

I'm gonna bring in a quote from another thread to summarize my thoughts on this.


Nice logic there Clark. Super Intellect any day now.
:lol:

[Hopefulsuicide]

:lol:

i think the thing that makes me so much more upset about it than a lot of people, is that if i were Chloe, i wouldn't want the normal life either

i personally would jump at the chance to be able to make a difference in the world in such an obvious way... it's like being handed the opportunity to be a hero. and i would never give that up, especially not for safety... that may sounds reckless, but i would rather LIVE for less time and actually do something with my life, accomplish something, give it some meaning... than to simply EXIST ignorantly

Chloe seemed to feel that way... so because i connect to that, the idea that Superman would ever take that away from someone upsets me ALOT. i would be incredibly angry if my friend tryed to force me into normalcy against my will

[devilneedsaride]

:lol:

i think the thing that makes me so much more upset about it than a lot of people, is that if i were Chloe, i wouldn't want the normal life either

i personally would jump at the chance to be able to make a difference in the world in such an obvious way... it's like being handed the opportunity to be a hero. and i would never give that up, especially not for safety... that may sounds reckless, but i would rather LIVE for less time and actually do something with my life, accomplish something, give it some meaning... than to simply EXIST ignorantly

Chloe seemed to feel that way... so because i connect to that, the idea that Superman would ever take that away from someone upsets me ALOT. i would be incredibly angry if my friend tryed to force me into normalcy against my will

I know exactly what you mean here, I'm the same way. I think Clark doesn't get that because all he's ever wanted was to be normal. He can't really see it from the other side. I would love to be able to make a genuine difference in the world, not just for self-definition or excitement or whatever, but because I think the world needs a lot of changing (am I being a sap? I think I'm being a sap.) And I would rather have a gunshot to the face at 25 and have mattered than die at 103, warm in bed, having done nothing but contributed to global warming and overpopulation. Yay, pointlessness and futility.

For me though, what bothers me most is far and away that it wasn't his decision to make. And any friend who tries to force me into anything against my will very quickly ceases to be my friend. So, to organize my thoughts here:

-Clark took away Chloe's fundamental right to decide what happens within her own mind. I can't even stress enough how wrong this is.
-Clark's logic about Chloe's safety was seriously flawed.
-Clark's logic about Chloe's happiness was seriously flawed.

So pretty much, he's just completely ruined her life. Go team BDA! :\

[dimeo782002]

[QUOTE=devilneedsaride;4209726]Despite the whole whose-decision-it-was debate (which I maintain is the most important part of all this) Clark's original reasoning of "Chloe will be safer if she doesn't know" is completely faulty.

It's not knowing his secret that puts people in danger, it's being around him. When people are around Clark they are constantly getting pulled into the whole meteor freak, Kryptonian man-eating cabbage sort of thing that's just constantly in his orbit. Take Lana for example. She didn't know his secret until mid-season 6 and I can safely say that the vast majority of the danger she suffered was in the early seasons when she didn't have the vaguest idea. The only really concrete example I can think of where knowing "the secret" directly put someone in danger was Pete's torturing at the end of season three that made him leave. With everyone else, it can be easily explained as proximity to Clark and all of his fun and exciting enemies, rather than knowledge of his secret.

I truely believe that Chloe is in more danger now than she was before. Being Clark's close friend but not knowing his secret is like trying to play football when you don't know the rules of the game. Sure, you can point to the big guys trying to body-slam you and figure that you should probably try to avoid them, but you don't know who to pass to and you can't coordinate your plays. Whereas before all this madness, big hulking man with gun/bomb/death ray meteor power would attack Chloe and she would know to call/scream for Clark, now he attacks her and she goes "Oh crap, hit him with a vase and run". And I think we all know that that's much less effective. I don't know how Clark got the idea that knowing his secret is the big thing that keeps getting people in his life hurt, but he's completely wrong. If he REALLY wanted to go hardcore on this idea of not accidentally bringing anything into people's lives that could possibly hurt them, he'de have to take a page out fo Kyle Tippet's book and go live in a hut somewhere, because what's hurting people is the crap he inadvertently drags with him.


wow i totally agree with this ! this is what i have been feeling. chloe in my opinion is in fact in more danger now than before because before she had knowledge of why these things were happening and now she has virtually no ideaa why a monster would attack her or try to hurt her to get to clark !

you just proved my point ! knowing his secret and getting hurt for it are two different things and i just wanted to thank you for putting it out there ! being around around clark gets you hurt more . then pete gettimg tortured is the only proof i saw of anyone being hurt to get the secret !

great post bravo, bravo ! * clapping *:D




or

[Clana_4ever2005]

The main reason why Clark taking away her memories was so wrong was she specifically said she wanted to keep his secret.

Her exact words right before she forgot his secret.

"The night I saw you catch that car with your bare hands, it changed my life. For the better. Clark, thanks to you I've actually made an impact on the world. I wouldn't trade that for anything."

Clark went against her specific wishes and changed her life against what she wanted.

[Flying Skyward]

Her exact words right before she forgot his secret.

"The night I saw you catch that car with your bare hands, it changed my life. For the better. Clark, thanks to you I've actually made an impact on the world. I wouldn't trade that for anything."

Clark went against her specific wishes and changed her life against what she wanted.

Yeah, Clark sucked in that episode. Not one of my favorite moments for him. I was very disappointed. Boo. :mad: