Clark did not cross the line - he wasn't a jerk IMO

[Clana4Life]

I thought what Clark did: Looking at Chloe's Isis list and breaking into Davis' locker were totally founded and I'm glad he did that. I'm actually a little disappointed in Chloe for not being of more help to him. I fault her this time. Considering all of the meteor freaks they encountered all the way back from Season 1, you'd think she'd a least give it some thought or pay more attention to the participants in her roundtable discussion. Meteor freaks seem to have a knack for destruction, but she didn't want to do anything. Wasn't it less than a month ago that she was wrong about that other meteor freak girl that she let stay at her place?! Clark was on the money. He was right about the person being a meteor freak and about Davis. In this case I think the ends justified the means. I'm glad he can speed-read. I understood Davis' point of view. Obviously you'd be upset with someone breaking into your locker, but I'm still glad Clark did it. He's showing a lot of guts and he's being way proactive, despite a few ruffled feelings. I just think Chloe acted a little out of character. It's rare that she will not even look into a case or not help Clark at all. She's been wrong too much lately not to listen to Clark (who for the record is almost always right). I didn't agree with her attack on Clark at all (her referring to his abilities as "bonus features" comes to mind). If he needs to, I hope Clark goes over her head again to get the information he needs to make Metropolis a safer place. Your thoughts???

[AndiGirl]

No...I thought he was wrong. :lol: sorry...probably not what you were looking for. I agree, sometimes it's important to go over peoples heads...but he had no valid evidence to prove any of her kids were to blame. Then, even when he did steal the list it didnt actually serve any purpose...they still only found the kid because Davis and Jimmy happend to show up.

Even Clark admitts at the end that he pushed it too far...and Chloe admitts she's too stubborn at times. I think they are both on the money. Clark had no right to use his powers to betray her like that...and she should trust his intentions are good.

[Kevin24]

I side with Clark because when I saw the episode Chloe got on my nerves in that scene.

People have given good reasons why Clark was in the wrong but I still feel annoyed by Chloe in that scene.

[Clana4Life]

Well, to be fair, he took the list to investigate whether the kids were guilty or innocent. Given the past record that meteor freaks hold, which is reeking havoc pretty much all of the time, I don't think his asking for the list and then reading it anyway was out of line. In the real world, this is what would have been done. This is how investigations are started. Any investigator would have questioned Chloe and her participants. Had Chloe kept an eye on the participants or at least attempted to help Clark, then they probably would have found the villain sooner.
Yeah, I know that Clark said he pushed too far, but I like this Clark. I think he made a smart move and he was right. AndiGirl, thanks for being my first poster! :)

----- Added 42 Seconds later -----


I side with Clark because when I saw the episode Chloe got on my nerves in that scene.

People have given good reasons why Clark was in the wrong but I still feel annoyed by Chloe in that scene.

Yeah, I was disappointed in her too. She would typically have at least kept an ear and eye open.

[SnowBird]

This isn't a matter of who was right or wrong. It has become Chloe verses Clark. Those who like Chloe will be on her side. Those who like Clark will be on his side. I don't think there is going to be an unbiased opinion for the most part...Personally, the end justified the means in this case. Chloe seemed out of character with not wanting to help Clark. This is expected considering how her future is shaping up. They are written this year to be growing farther apart so the list was used to bring on a disagreement to put that wedge between them. It isn't going to be the last time they won't see eye to eye.

[Imzadia]

:p I'm with you on this one, 'Clana4Life'. You may remember my response on this topic in another thread. IMO, it seemed that Clark was Intentionally written to be a 'jerk' in this particular episode, which is, as someone suggested, Why Lois wasn't in this episode. She would've "busted his chops" for his Obtrusive behavior, especially toward Chloe, IF she was privvy to his 'Secret'. However, I DO believe that Chloe should've trusted Clark above All others. Also, IMO, it seemed that Chloe was behaving in a biased manner because of her own meteor infection AND whatever-the-Brainiac is going on with her. :\

:rolleyes: You must have noticed that Clark recognized the Error of his behavior, humbled himself, and went to Chloe and apologized with an attitude of Repentence. He reassured her how much he still cares about her and also pointed out to her what worries him about her. Wasn't it only at the end of last week's episode that when Lois went to Chloe to apologize to her for her behavior at the engagement party, they Really talked and Lois finally believed that Chloe loved Jimmy and then admitted to her that Clark had told her so, and was Right afterall? Chloe's response to her was that "Clark usually IS right, and that she should get used to it". :p

We should have ALL learned by now and Accepted, because Smallville has shown us with its ReInterpretation of the CK/Superman story, that Clark Is Emotionally human, so we must allow him to learn from his mistakes. :) He won't Always be able to afford to make mistakes, and we know he'll learn that, too, but I'm sure he'll 'mess up' again before he Finally gets it right, IMHO. :\ :cool:

[curiosity]

Clark wasn't a jerk. Chloe was a jerk. People were being murdered. A simple police warrant could have made her turn over the list. Interfering with a police investigation is a crime. And Chloe knew Clark was way better than a police investigation unofficial or not.

In the end, one of her group was the killer. The ends justified the means, to save lives. Even one of her group was killed. That was really self involved of Chloe to do that. Jimmy was almost killed. Did anyone see her arguing with Clark when the call came in that Jimmy was getting attacked by the killer. She gave Clark the- please superspeed and save my boyfriend look. No thanks to Chloe, sinse she refused to turn over the list with the killers name on it.

I think she's showing Chloiac symptoms, like Brainiac is starting to mess with her head.

[Bizarrolover]

I don't think he was a jerk. The murders were committed by 'non humans' and he went directly to the only place that congregates them (apart from 33.1). And Clark didn't accuse anyone, he was just investigating with MM's help. Chloe has the right to be angry with him, though she should know that her group is bound to be suspicious when something strange happens. I thought she was even a bit of a hypocrat, because a few years ago she would have done the same thing. AT school she kept files about the meteor infected, for investigating purposes. Back in season 3 (extinction) her research helped to save Lex's life.

[SueB]

I could write the letters IMO for everything that follows, please understand, this is my opinion.


Clark was obsessed, not a jerk for taking the list.
The only thing he was a jerk about was belittling Chloe's new life by saying he wasn't going to waste time on the Kumbayah. That was pretty unkind and OOC.

Chloe was protective and stubborn for not working with Clark immediately but not a jerk.
The only thing she was a jerk about was telling Clark he was a coward for not stepping up. That was a hurtful thing to say, even if she felt betrayed (which she did).


Chloe was right by an objective point of view regarding the list --- Clark had no real probable cause. He at least should have made a case for what he was looking for.
Clark was right from a Smallville history point of view regarding looking for a MF as the culprit -- it was likely a MF and they needed to look for someone who could fit the crime.

But by grabbing the list with zero pre-amble and just sending off MM for the random interrogation, I think TPTB went out of their way to show he was hasty. If they wanted to make it look like he was right and there was nothing wrong in his approach, they wouldn't have taken the tack they did. It was on purpose to show his obsession.

It was one of the major plot points of the episode to show he struggling with balance. Why on earth deny him this little development plot (and thank goodness we finally got one!) by trying to say there was nothing he learned in the end?

And of course in the end Clark himself said he went over the line.

This is not a Chloe vs Clark fight -- both characters were right and wrong, that was the message they were trying to send. Not a one vs the other.

IMO of course.

[Smallville6]

ITA with the OP. Clark was not a jerk. Maybe what he did wasn't perfect, but he wasnt a jerk. How would any of you feel if you had to run around saving people all the time to the point where your not allowing yourself a life- and then have people die on your watch? Now obviously people dieing aren't Clark's fault, but he blamed himself and he felt he had to do whatever necessary to catch a killer. It's death of innocent people VS. Chloe losing trust of some people. DEATH vs. TRUST. idk, in my opinion death is a much bigger deal and I feel that what Clark did was right. Now, I'm not saying that what Chloe did was wrong. I agree on both sides of the fight: but Clark was not a jerk and he wasnt wrong either.

[Timester]

Clark was crossing the thin line that separates him from a dictator here. And that was GREAT. Because this is the kind of mistake I want Clark learning from, the same kind of mistake he did on the other incarnations and learned from them.

[Clana4Life]

I agree. I don't think it was a Clark vs. Chloe sort of thing and I actually hope they stay close friends. I just think it was out of character for Chloe to not even try to help Clark. She didn't even look into the case or consider the possibility that it might have been one of her participants. I wish I could blame that on Brainiac, but I think that was just Chloe all by herself. It is true that a warrant would have easily taken care of that. And if one knows or even thinks they know of possible suspects in a murder case, they should call the police. This could help save lives. If the suspects are truly innocent, then they have nothing to worry about. That's what Clark did - turned over possible suspects. Clark may have apologized in the end, but I personally don't even think it was necessary. Every meteor infected person up until this point has been a villain and/or crazy. Of course they would be a suspect in such a bizarre murder. Chloe has been wrong on a consistent basis these days and her unwillingness to help did not aid matters. Had they caught the participant in the first place, they would have found out that he was not the killer only a copy cat one, because Davis would have killed again while "the shadow" was still in custody. But oh well. I think Clark did what needed to be done.

[Anu]

Chloe was bad in this episode, she should listen to her friends, not that she isn't loyal to Clark. I just thought that it was so stupid of Chloe to take sides with her kids "the meteor freaks", c'mon she dosen't even know them, and meteor freaks are often destructive.
If she was smart, she could just trust Clark in this one, and try to do the right thing, just some investigation, to make sure of things. How stupid could really Chloe be by trusting people like that ?!!

[SalvadorianGirl]

but I personally don't even think it was necessary. Every meteor infected person up until this point has been a villain and/or crazy. Of course they would be a suspect in such a bizarre murder.

That's a poor excuse though. That's estentially racial or ethinc profiling at best. He's punishing a community for the bad apples of the rest. He shouldn't have automatically assumed it was a meteor freak.

He should have looked into all possible reasons for the murders. If he had present Chloe evidence that it wasn't something not MF, I easily believe Chloe would have helped him.

But once he blazed him with this stubborness that "No. It's the meteor freaks because I say so." wasn't exactly going to be the way to get Chloe on his side.

[Kevin24]

He did look into all possible suspects. He went off the destruction caused at the Ace of Clubs and he decided that only someone with powers could have done that.

He didn't automatically assume it was one of them.

Like a poster said above Clark was acting like a "dictator" because saving lives was most important to him and everything was secondary like John Jones said.

His heart was in the right place but he went about it the wrong way.

[SalvadorianGirl]

He didn't automatically assume it was one of them.

Did he think it was a kryptonian that might have ecasped the PZ? Did he think it could have been another extraterrisal being like Maxima? That was my problem with him assuming it was someone with powers and linking it to a group of people with powers.


His heart was in the right place but he went about it the wrong way.

I don't take that away from him. It's what I enjoyed about the episode. That Clark has to learn to go at it in the right place in the right way.

[Stu.Kent]

what I didn't like was when chloe said that clark's 'bonus features' not giving him the right to do what he did, but Superman has on regular occasions held the fate of the world in his hands, the Man of steel has to take on a huge amount of responsability making life and death decisions in the blink of an eye. My point is that clarks moral sensibilities do take priority over chloe's quams about her dr.phil sessions. I hate to be so blunt because I love chloe but I would say this: Clark=important, Chloe=not so much. She has every right to be angry but at the end of the day shes just gonna have to deal with it, maybe try and put herself in clark's shoes for once, I doubt it's easy carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders.

[Dor el]

I could write the letters IMO for everything that follows, please understand, this is my opinion.


Clark was obsessed, not a jerk for taking the list.
The only thing he was a jerk about was belittling Chloe's new life by saying he wasn't going to waste time on the Kumbayah. That was pretty unkind and OOC.

Chloe was protective and stubborn for not working with Clark immediately but not a jerk.
The only thing she was a jerk about was telling Clark he was a coward for not stepping up. That was a hurtful thing to say, even if she felt betrayed (which she did).


Chloe was right by an objective point of view regarding the list --- Clark had no real probable cause. He at least should have made a case for what he was looking for.
Clark was right from a Smallville history point of view regarding looking for a MF as the culprit -- it was likely a MF and they needed to look for someone who could fit the crime.

But by grabbing the list with zero pre-amble and just sending off MM for the random interrogation, I think TPTB went out of their way to show he was hasty. If they wanted to make it look like he was right and there was nothing wrong in his approach, they wouldn't have taken the tack they did. It was on purpose to show his obsession.

It was one of the major plot points of the episode to show he struggling with balance. Why on earth deny him this little development plot (and thank goodness we finally got one!) by trying to say there was nothing he learned in the end?

And of course in the end Clark himself said he went over the line.

This is not a Chloe vs Clark fight -- both characters were right and wrong, that was the message they were trying to send. Not a one vs the other.

IMO of course.

SueB, this is one time I totally agree with you. I think both characters learned a lesson from this. Clark was hasty, but as you said, Clark is obsessed right now with trying to help save people and based on his experience with meteor infected people, it is reasonable to assume that he might start gathering his evidence with that particular group. After all, didn't the serial killings recently start and didn't the support group recently start meeting. And regarding that list to MM, MM is in a position where he cam help Clark gather evidence and interpret that evidence. Plus, Clark trusts MM to do the right thing so why would Clark have any heartburn sharing that list with MM? Regarding Chloe, I understand her desire to protect the confidences of her group members. I think also that she is in a position to help protect the citizens of Metropolis and that for her to abdicate one responsibility for the other is just as wrong. What she could have done was to tell Clark that she would review her clients' abilities and work with Clark finding the killer. For Chloe to do nothing when innocent people were being killed is very unChloelike. I liked that they both recognized that they could have handled things better. I do believe, however, that a wedge between Chloe and Clark is purposefully being driven. I also think that Chloe is choosing to believe the best about Davis and that is why she is sweeping the "skin under fingernails" evidence under the rug. She likes Davis, and she wants to help him and those feelings are coming between her and Clark.
When the shadow killer was exposed, Chloe was so relieved that the killer had been apprehended, that she did not not want to think that there might be another killer and that that killer might be Davis, her new close friend and confidant. Sad that the villain team figured this out and the good guys glossed right over it.

[Superboy2]

Clark could have handled it differently, but Chloe wasn't thinking. Of course it would hurt to give him the list and think that she hasn't made a difference, but still. She should've been more willing and not to bash Clark. He's not meteor infected, he's an alien. There's a difference.

[Dannyblue1]

Isn't the ends-justifies-the-means mentality Lex's point of view? And have't we been shown over the years all of the reasons why that is not a good or justifiable way to go about doing things.

Lex had good, even valid reasons for some of the things he did. (There are dangerous aliens out there, and some of them have already killed plenty of humans. So, looked at that way, building an army of humans with special abilities doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.) But did that justify the things he was doing. (Abducting people with special abilities. Experimenting on them.)

People can always find a good reason for doing bad things. But that doesn't, and should never, make doing bad things okay.

Clark wasn't doing anything as bad as Lex. But he was stepping over the same kinds of lines. Saying, "He had a good reason," doesn't make it right. And I am very glad Clark realized he'd stepped over the line. Being able to see the mistake he made, that what he had done wasn't right, shows that he is a good person he actually is. I'd have been more worried if he'd continued to think he hadn't done anything wrong.

[Dor el]

Plus, Superboy2, she knows Clark, and she knows or she should have known that Clark will go out of his way to protect the innocent, the downtrodden, and the underdog. He had a problem (murdering spree) and he needed to solve it ASAP and he thought Chloe's list might help. I tend to think that she took it personally after all she is meteor infected herself or at least she was preBrainiac encounter. I have to wonder exactly what she thought Clark was gonna do with that list. Kill the group members? NEVER!!! Investigate likely suspects? Why not? Would finding the guilty party in her support group reflect badly on her? Shouldn't. It wasn't like he was gonna give that list to the US government who can't keep a secret or properly get to the bottom of the problem. This was Clark, the best secret keeper, the most moral guy, and the most honest guy she knows. (Yeah he isn't perfect, but I will bet on his standard of perfection any day of the week.) I don't think she should hold Clark to the same human standards as everyone else. She knows he's way better than that. Profiling? Maybe, but if if saves lives, then I say do it. People with nothing to hide should not be offended. Nearly every time I fly, I am the one in the group who is tapped for the extra security scrutiny and I, being native American, do not fit into known likely terrorist groups. And I am OK with that because I know it serves a greater good.

[stenochick]

I could write the letters IMO for everything that follows, please understand, this is my opinion.


Clark was obsessed, not a jerk for taking the list.
The only thing he was a jerk about was belittling Chloe's new life by saying he wasn't going to waste time on the Kumbayah. That was pretty unkind and OOC.

Chloe was protective and stubborn for not working with Clark immediately but not a jerk.
The only thing she was a jerk about was telling Clark he was a coward for not stepping up. That was a hurtful thing to say, even if she felt betrayed (which she did).


Chloe was right by an objective point of view regarding the list --- Clark had no real probable cause. He at least should have made a case for what he was looking for.
Clark was right from a Smallville history point of view regarding looking for a MF as the culprit -- it was likely a MF and they needed to look for someone who could fit the crime.

But by grabbing the list with zero pre-amble and just sending off MM for the random interrogation, I think TPTB went out of their way to show he was hasty. If they wanted to make it look like he was right and there was nothing wrong in his approach, they wouldn't have taken the tack they did. It was on purpose to show his obsession.

It was one of the major plot points of the episode to show he struggling with balance. Why on earth deny him this little development plot (and thank goodness we finally got one!) by trying to say there was nothing he learned in the end?

And of course in the end Clark himself said he went over the line.

This is not a Chloe vs Clark fight -- both characters were right and wrong, that was the message they were trying to send. Not a one vs the other.

IMO of course.

Well said. ITA.

[Black Panda]

This isn't a matter of who was right or wrong. It has become Chloe verses Clark.
This wouldn't be the first time these two violated patient confidentiality in an investigation.


I have to wonder exactly what she thought Clark was gonna do with that list. Kill the group members? NEVER!!! Investigate likely suspects? Why not? Would finding the guilty party in her support group reflect badly on her? Shouldn't.

More importantly, why does he need just the list? Why doesn't he ask HER what she knows. Usually Chloe would be the first to look for the connections amidst the evidence. She might rule out this source then seek another...


Chloe seemed out of character with not wanting to help Clark. This is expected considering how her future is shaping up. They are written this year to be growing farther apart so the list was used to bring on a disagreement to put that wedge between them. It isn't going to be the last time they won't see eye to eye.
Yeah, to me this is the critical point. Clark was being myopic in his investigation, but really what was Chloe doing? Usually she helps. Here I just saw her stonewalling.

Hi Brainiac!

Sure it's subtle. She has a decent ethical reason for her position, and usually that might be covered and they would move on to investigate. If you watch the episode clearly it's like Chloiac is seeking every excuse not to help Clark. He practically demands her assistance with Davis' lab report, and it is provided a bit reluctantly.


Clark was obsessed, not a jerk for taking the list.
The only thing he was a jerk about was belittling Chloe's new life by saying he wasn't going to waste time on the Kumbayah. That was pretty unkind and OOC.
Which I excuse because Clark is burning the candle at both ends and clearly not acting like his best self. The question is why.


But by grabbing the list with zero pre-amble and just sending off MM for the random interrogation, I think TPTB went out of their way to show he was hasty. If they wanted to make it look like he was right and there was nothing wrong in his approach, they wouldn't have taken the tack they did. It was on purpose to show his obsession.
Agreed.


Clark was crossing the thin line that separates him from a dictator here. And that was GREAT. Because this is the kind of mistake I want Clark learning from, the same kind of mistake he did on the other incarnations and learned from them.
He's crossed it before, and he needs a person in his corner to support him when he loses it emotionally. The problem in this episode is that the usual support, Chloe, is part of the problem. Hi Brianiac.


I wish I could blame that on Brainiac, but I think that was just Chloe all by herself.
Head tiliting, flattened affect, spouting cold derisive comments Chloe? Nope, no Brainiac to see here.

[oqllcksmallville]

Chloe changed now .
and she's more defensive of her friends [ member's in group ] ,
over the world ?
cause if that was me ,
and there was even a chance my " kids " had done that ,
even the 1% chance ,
i would have helped clark out ,
if anything ; to clear their names . ( y )

[clarkbunny]

OK here is my two cents. Chloe was in the right and Clark was in the wrong - not because I like one more than the other but for these basic reasons:

Data protection laws
Patient-confidentiality

Doctors/therapists etc. can not just hand over their records to police or whoever asks for it without the patient's permission unless a warrant is obtained.

Chloe as the help centre leader had a duty to protect her patients' information. No matter what his good intentions were Clark is not the police and he did not have the right to access that information. In allowing Clark to get access to her client's details Chloe breached client/patient confidentiality - she had a duty to protect her clients info.

The ends do not justify the means. By setting up that centre the patients/clients were placing their trust in Chloe to handle their info sensitively and confidentially. They gave their details to Chloe under the understanding that it would be used solely for contacting them and dealing with their treatment. It is an abuse of the patients rights to then use that info for another purpose other than what was agreed by the patient in this case - to try and identify possible suspects in a criminal case.

Companies get fined megabucks by the government for this kind of data misuse. I hope Clark does not attempt this again it was a very poor show. Bad Clark in your bed!

[SnowBird]

I don't think Chloe is a licensed therapist or Isis isn't even in the government data base. After Chloe had her run in with homeland security, she wants to stay as far away from the government as she can get. She wouldn't want her kids to be known by the government.

So, what I'm getting at is that it is more of a moral issue and her own personal wants than it being against the law for Chloe to turn that list over to Clark. Okay, is she breaking the law by bringing these kids together under the pretense that she is qualified to help them other than she is meteor infected herself? Was she, therefore, protecting her own identity in case this list fell into the wrong hands. She was trying to cover her own guilt, imo. Remember folks who saved the day when Clark saved Jimmy from this shadow kid and caught him to be turned over to the police. Clark did remember the names on Chloe's list which she didn't give permission to have, but we are talking about Chloe who hacks into a Government computer and has over stepped her boundaries with every one of her friends. She needs to remember that she has her own guilt and not be so self righteous. She went against her best friend for kids she hardly knew. There is something wrong with Chloe's compass as it isn't pointing due N. I really hope it isn't all Chloe's doing and that her over sized brain is contributing to her lack of common sense.

[Kevin24]

I don't think Chloe is a licensed therapist or Isis isn't even in the government data base. After Chloe had her run in with homeland security, she wants to stay as far away from the government as she can get. She wouldn't want her kids to be known by the government.

So, what I'm getting at is that it is more of a moral issue and her own personal wants than it being against the law for Chloe to turn that list over to Clark. Okay, is she breaking the law by bringing these kids together under the pretense that she is qualified to help them other than she is meteor infected herself? Was she, therefore, protecting her own identity in case this list fell into the wrong hands. She was trying to cover her own guilt, imo. Remember folks who saved the day when Clark saved Jimmy from this shadow kid and caught him to be turned over to the police. Clark did remember the names on Chloe's list which she didn't give permission to have, but we are talking about Chloe who hacks into a Government computer and has over stepped her boundaries with every one of her friends. She needs to remember that she has her own guilt and not be so self righteous. She went against her best friend for kids she hardly knew. There is something wrong with Chloe's compass as it isn't pointing due N. I really hope it isn't all Chloe's doing and that her over sized brain is contributing to her lack of common sense.

I agree

[RedKRules]

As pure as Clark´s intentions were .... I think he crossed the line ....

[27CDruid]

Clark was RIGHT to look at the list IMO. He has saved the world many times and feels a duty to protect the weak. He is trying to save lives and with his powers he can investigate non-intrusively.

Clark was WRONG however to give the list to MM. MM no longer has the powers to stop a meteor freak and the police being involved frightened them.

[clarkbunny]

I don't think Chloe is a licensed therapist or Isis isn't even in the government data base. After Chloe had her run in with homeland security, she wants to stay as far away from the government as she can get. She wouldn't want her kids to be known by the government.

So, what I'm getting at is that it is more of a moral issue and her own personal wants than it being against the law for Chloe to turn that list over to Clark. Okay, is she breaking the law by bringing these kids together under the pretense that she is qualified to help them other than she is meteor infected herself? Was she, therefore, protecting her own identity in case this list fell into the wrong hands. She was trying to cover her own guilt, imo. Remember folks who saved the day when Clark saved Jimmy from this shadow kid and caught him to be turned over to the police. Clark did remember the names on Chloe's list which she didn't give permission to have, but we are talking about Chloe who hacks into a Government computer and has over stepped her boundaries with every one of her friends. She needs to remember that she has her own guilt and not be so self righteous. She went against her best friend for kids she hardly knew. There is something wrong with Chloe's compass as it isn't pointing due N. I really hope it isn't all Chloe's doing and that her over sized brain is contributing to her lack of common sense.

Sorry but regardless of whether Chloe is a registered/licensed practitioner for meteor freaks or whether she actually possesses any skills to assist them by taking their names and any other personal details she has a duty to protect that information. If she didn't want that responsibility then she should not have taken their details. That list of names could be lethal in the wrong hands - the police could use it round up and lock up all the meteor infected who had come forward, Tess could get her hands on it and kidnap all of them for experimentation, meteor freak haters could use it to kill the meteor freaks. Her clients entrusted her with their details and she has a duty to protect it.

If Chloe is going to hand over their info to any tom, dick or harry at the first sign of any meteor freak related trouble then it is going to erode her clients trust in her and they are not going to come back. I know Clark and Chloe don't exactly have a good track record on following a moral code where obtaining info is concerned but it is one thing breaking into a database/files that you are not responsible for in order to solve a crime and a completely different thing misusing files/info that you have been entrusted with.

People should not let the fact that it was an informal list and that Clark had good intentions to cloud their judgement. Chloe was in a position of trust and she had a duty to protect the identities of her clients. Clark abused their friendship to get hold of the list for his own purposes and that was wrong no matter how you look at it. He did not consider the consequences which were
1. The loss of trust that Chloe's clients would have for her - believing that she just handed their details over to the authorities
and
2. The fact that Chloe could have been put in danger by one of the client's seeking revenge on her for giving out their details (this could have been the killer or any one of the clients, the meteor infected are not particularly known for being the most stable individuals something like this could drive them over the edge)

It was a stupid thing for Clark to do and thankfully he realised this at the end.

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----

Something else to add is that those few people at the Isis foundation were not ALL of the meteor freaks in Metropolis. There are still a hell of a lot of them out there. There was no guarantee that any of Chloe's clients were responsible for the murders - and indeed they weren't it was Davis.

Clark was just taking advantage of the fact that Chloe was his friend and that the information was there. The information was there but it was not at his disposal. Going over Chloe's head and taking the information showed a lack of respect for Chloe and what she was trying to achieve with Isis foundation.

[zorasuperman]

as much as I wish I could agree with clark kent, whom I love dearly, especially smallvilles version on this, i am deeply split on this issue. however, if i have to choose on side over the other I would have to say that clark would be on the wrong because he did, in the end, take it from chloe after she did say no. the thing is, his motives are pure (i know i am totally sounding hypocritical but in my little head it makes sense) but his reason for doing it is completely noble, yet at the end of the day, he did it without her permission. chloe did not WANT clark to find out; imagine how clark would have felt if someone had done that to him. even chloe brought it up by of how he wuldn't want his information plastered about being an alien around. so it is that last finishing thought of how clark would react; true being an alien would have more attractions than a meteor freak would, clark, nonetheless, wouldn't be too pleased if he, like the meteor freaks shoes, had his anonymity betrayed and what not).

I truly want to take clarks side; really I do, but it seems that i am more pulled to chloe's side.

[thebog1]

End justifies the means or the means justifies the end... which one is it?

Let's use the age-old example-story:

A man finds out his wife has an illness that will definitely kill her within a week if left untreated. The only treatment is a medicine that only one doctor in the entire city has, with there being no place to get more. The doctor knows he's the only one who has it, so he overcharges the man by fifty thousand dollars. The man doesn't have that kind of money.

Should he:

A) Accept the fact that his wife will die because they can't afford the medicine?
B) Steal the medicine with an intent to pay the money over time - time in which his wife will still be alive?

In that example, is stealing ok? Is it justified because of the actions of the doctor and because it will save a life - his wife's life? Or is stealing, no matter what the reason, wrong?

Where does a person draw the line between making a wrong a right and a right a wrong, hm? Where does blaming one person's action (or inaction) to excuse or explain your action(s) start and end?

While there is no 'absolute' universe, there is an absolute answer to the thread's question: Yes, Clark Kent was wrong to take names off of a private organization's list and hand them over to the authorities. Clark broke the confidentiality of the organization - as well as Chloe's confidentiality - and justified it by his own reasons. However, it will not and can not change the fact that he, of his own free will and mind, 'stole' those names and handed them in to an authority without proper authorization - from the clients or from the organaztion owner (Chloe). Whether he stole one name or fifty, stealing's stealing. Steal one penny, it's just as bed as stealing a million dollars. It's the exact same crime. The difference in value doesn't change the crime identities.

Oh, and yes - I think that that action could (and did) qualify for a temporary 'jerk' status. It's not who Superman is/will be about, at all. Hence the apology.

[Inkpen23]

Sorry but regardless of whether Chloe is a registered/licensed practitioner for meteor freaks or whether she actually possesses any skills to assist them by taking their names and any other personal details she has a duty to protect that information. If she didn't want that responsibility then she should not have taken their details. That list of names could be lethal in the wrong hands - the police could use it round up and lock up all the meteor infected who had come forward, Tess could get her hands on it and kidnap all of them for experimentation, meteor freak haters could use it to kill the meteor freaks. Her clients entrusted her with their details and she has a duty to protect it.

If Chloe is going to hand over their info to any tom, dick or harry at the first sign of any meteor freak related trouble then it is going to erode her clients trust in her and they are not going to come back. I know Clark and Chloe don't exactly have a good track record on following a moral code where obtaining info is concerned but it is one thing breaking into a database/files that you are not responsible for in order to solve a crime and a completely different thing misusing files/info that you have been entrusted with.

People should not let the fact that it was an informal list and that Clark had good intentions to cloud their judgement. Chloe was in a position of trust and she had a duty to protect the identities of her clients. Clark abused their friendship to get hold of the list for his own purposes and that was wrong no matter how you look at it. He did not consider the consequences which were
1. The loss of trust that Chloe's clients would have for her - believing that she just handed their details over to the authorities
and
2. The fact that Chloe could have been put in danger by one of the client's seeking revenge on her for giving out their details (this could have been the killer or any one of the clients, the meteor infected are not particularly known for being the most stable individuals something like this could drive them over the edge)

It was a stupid thing for Clark to do and thankfully he realised this at the end.

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----

Something else to add is that those few people at the Isis foundation were not ALL of the meteor freaks in Metropolis. There are still a hell of a lot of them out there. There was no guarantee that any of Chloe's clients were responsible for the murders - and indeed they weren't it was Davis.

Clark was just taking advantage of the fact that Chloe was his friend and that the information was there. The information was there but it was not at his disposal. Going over Chloe's head and taking the information showed a lack of respect for Chloe and what she was trying to achieve with Isis foundation.

BRAVO! I couldn't have said it better myself. Once again, Clarkbunny you have proven yourself to be a voice of reason! :)

[kris10]

if it wasnt wrong then why did clark apologize did everyone forget that he apologized to chloe and stated that he let his obsession get the best of him?? not only that clark could have approached chloe in a different way then demanding and taking a list that off her desk and just picking off the names...he could of just asked what are there potential abilities and then gone from there instead of going behind her back...and he knew he was going behind her back if it was right dont ya think he would have just done it and let her know he was doing it... i think that chloe was also mad at not knowing that he handed those names over to the police and then looking REALLY bad with the meteor kids because now they think that they cant trust her...shes trying to do something good for these people....and you can still gather a group to talk and not necessarily counsel....just to get together and let these people know that there are people out there like them.....and not alone-(doesnt clark complain that he feels alone all of the time because of his abilities-well think of the MFs thats gotta stink not to mention CHLOE IS ONE OF THEM.
another thing to add i think that ps3 are setting up this for a reason....

[smallvillerocks45]

Does obsession qualify someone as being a jerk? I don't know, maybe... but I don't even think Clark realized enough to care that by going behind Chloe's back he was offending her judgment - regardless of whether or not his hunch was correct.

That being said, Clark's behavior was very reminiscent to that of Chloe's back when she was at the Torch. Think about the episode "Truth" or any other episode where she felt the story was more important than those she had to step on along the way to get it. At least Clark was doing it for more than just a story.... and even still, I wouldn't ever call Chloe a jerk for her past transgressions (because it was just a story).
The same goes for Clark; he was blinded by his obsession - his ultimate goal - but he wasn't trying to hurt anyone. Do the ends justify the means? Maybe in this case yes. ... and this is not to say that stealing that list wasn't wrong (obsession is definitely crossing the line), but at least he apologized. Maybe if he hadn't it would be a different story. No, I don't think Clark was a jerk.

[kris10]

apologizing means someone did something they shouldnt have period...

[BadToad]

apologizing means someone did something they shouldnt have period

No it doesn't. It means that someone feels bad about the way something went down, and is trying to make amends. Its only too bad Chloe didn't feel similarly inclined to apologize for the things she said to Clark. I guess for "a jerk", Clark is still the bigger person. I can think of many examples of this show when a character apologized, and I didn't really think it was required.

I think any investigation into the murder of Mary had to start with the group she had just left. Clark may not be a policeman, but he started just where the police would've started. Retracing the victim's steps, finding out where she had last been, and who she was with, finding out if she had any disagreements with them, etc.

Its all well and good to huddle under the PC umbrella, but Clark wasn't trying to persecute Chloe's "kids". He wasn't rounding them and marching them off to prison. And the only person he gave that list to was J'onn Jones. A person he has very good reason to trust in. The kids in the group may have felt that Chloe betrayed their trust, but has anyone considered that they might be grateful that it came to light that there was a murderer sitting in their midst, having milk and cookies with them? I know I'd sure want to know that.

In the end, there's absolutely no proof at all in the episode that any of these kids suffered anything more then the slight inconvenience of being questioned by the police. I must've missed all the persecution, torture, imprisonment and other rights infringements they suffered because of that "jerk" Clark. Aside from being asked questions by the police. We don't even have any proof that anyone was made aware of their names outside of Chloe, Clark and J'onn, and none of those 3 are out to hurt them.

Yes, I can understand Chloe being upset that Clark went around her. But has Chloe stopped to think that her own experiances with the meteor infected give her just cause to use caution before deciding that they were all harmless fluffly bunnies that just need to be loved? When you have all the evidence that this show has given us that many of the meteor infected do become dangerous, I don't think that should be ignored just because it might not be PC enough. Chloe herself thought she was a "ticking timebomb" when she found out she was meteor infected. And its actually been Clark over the years, not Chloe, who has been far more compassionate towards the meteor infected. Even though this episode would like to pull a big retcon.

Still, I think at the end Clark was thinking he wished he had gone about things differently, and I do believe he will consider things more carefully in the future. All to his credit. But I think just to dismiss him as "a jerk" is not considering the big picture at all, or the fact that someone looking into that list may very well uncovered that they had a seriously unstable and dangerous member in their midst. If Chloe's job is to protect these kids, and their anonymity, and help them, doesn't she also have an obligation to make sure they're safe in their little group? And how can you do that if you are just blindly and naively accepting each member at completely face value?


2. The fact that Chloe could have been put in danger by one of the client's seeking revenge on her for giving out their details (this could have been the killer or any one of the clients, the meteor infected are not particularly known for being the most stable individuals something like this could drive them over the edge)

Yes, exactly right. They aren't exactly known for their stability. So, not taking that into consideration at all is quite dangerous. And not safe for counseler, or for the members of the group. As this episode showed.

[Clana4Life]

No it doesn't. It means that someone feels bad about the way something went down, and is trying to make amends. Its only too bad Chloe didn't feel similarly inclined to apologize for the things she said to Clark. I guess for "a jerk", Clark is still the bigger person. I can think of many examples of this show when a character apologized, and I didn't really think it was required.

I think any investigation into the murder of Mary had to start with the group she had just left. Clark may not be a policeman, but he started just where the police would've started. Retracing the victim's steps, finding out where she had last been, and who she was with, finding out if she had any disagreements with them, etc.

Its all well and good to huddle under the PC umbrella, but Clark wasn't trying to persecute Chloe's "kids". He wasn't rounding them and marching them off to prison. And the only person he gave that list to was J'onn Jones. A person he has very good reason to trust in. The kids in the group may have felt that Chloe betrayed their trust, but has anyone considered that they might be grateful that it came to light that there was a murderer sitting in their midst, having milk and cookies with them? I know I'd sure want to know that.

In the end, there's absolutely no proof at all in the episode that any of these kids suffered anything more then the slight inconvenience of being questioned by the police. I must've missed all the persecution, torture, imprisonment and other rights infringements they suffered because of that "jerk" Clark, and being asked questions by the police. We don't even have any proof that anyone was made aware of their names outside of Chloe, Clark and J'onn, and none of those 3 are out to hurt them.

Yes, I can understand Chloe being upset that Clark went around her. But has Chloe stopped to think that her own experiances with the meteor infected give her just cause to use caution before deciding that they were all harmless fluffly bunnies that just need to be loved? When you have all the evidence that this show has given us that many of the meteor infected do become dangerous, I don't think that should be ignored just because it might not be PC enough. Chloe herself thought she was a "ticking timebomb" when she found out she was meteor infected. And its actually been Clark over the years, not Chloe, who has been far more compassionate towards the meteor infected. Even though this episode would like to pull a big retcon.

Still, I think at the end Clark was thinking he wished he had gone about things differently, and I do believe he will consider things more carefully in the future. All to his credit. But I think just to dismiss him as "a jerk" is not considering the big picture at all, or the fact that someone looking into that list may very well uncovered that they had a seriously unstable and dangerous member in their midst. If Chloe's job is to protect these kids, and their anonymity, and help them, doesn't she also have an obligation to make sure they're safe in their little group? And how can you do that if you are just blindly and naively accepting each member at completely face value?



Yes, exactly right. They aren't exactly known for their stability. So, not taking that into consideration at all is quite dangerous. And not safe for counseler, or for the members of the group. As this episode showed.


Well said, BadToad. ITA.

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----


End justifies the means or the means justifies the end... which one is it?

Let's use the age-old example-story:

A man finds out his wife has an illness that will definitely kill her within a week if left untreated. The only treatment is a medicine that only one doctor in the entire city has, with there being no place to get more. The doctor knows he's the only one who has it, so he overcharges the man by fifty thousand dollars. The man doesn't have that kind of money.

Should he:

A) Accept the fact that his wife will die because they can't afford the medicine?
B) Steal the medicine with an intent to pay the money over time - time in which his wife will still be alive?

In that example, is stealing ok? Is it justified because of the actions of the doctor and because it will save a life - his wife's life? Or is stealing, no matter what the reason, wrong?

Where does a person draw the line between making a wrong a right and a right a wrong, hm? Where does blaming one person's action (or inaction) to excuse or explain your action(s) start and end?

While there is no 'absolute' universe, there is an absolute answer to the thread's question: Yes, Clark Kent was wrong to take names off of a private organization's list and hand them over to the authorities. Clark broke the confidentiality of the organization - as well as Chloe's confidentiality - and justified it by his own reasons. However, it will not and can not change the fact that he, of his own free will and mind, 'stole' those names and handed them in to an authority without proper authorization - from the clients or from the organaztion owner (Chloe). Whether he stole one name or fifty, stealing's stealing. Steal one penny, it's just as bed as stealing a million dollars. It's the exact same crime. The difference in value doesn't change the crime identities.

Oh, and yes - I think that that action could (and did) qualify for a temporary 'jerk' status. It's not who Superman is/will be about, at all. Hence the apology.

This is an interesting example. The doctor is committing the act of extortion. So if the husband takes the medicine and pays the fair market value, then I wouldn't call it stealing at all. I would say his actions are justified. If there is any wrong committed, it is on the part of the doctor who took an oath to help and heal and has now tried to take advantage of a dying woman and a grief-stricken husband. It seems the focus is being placed on the wrong party. But I would not call this stealing.

[kris10]

yea well when clark says to chloe,
I crossed a line with you...indicates something bad also chloe could have trusted clark more but clark did cross the line...

[curiosity]

If you look at if from a "people are being killed and I want to save them" point of view. Chloe is the jerk here all the way. Maybe she wasn't trying to be a jerk, maybe she just made a really bad judgement call. What's her purpose for her actions? To "gain trust for her social help goup". How could anyone think that takes top priority over saving people's lives? I don't know. Even professional psychologists and therapists turn over information to the police if they think someone's life is in danger.

In a murder investigation Chloe would have been required to hand over her list. Clark just didn't take the time to get a warrant or get the police involved legally first. Something is wrong with this picture. It's not just a who's right, who's wrong argument. Chloe should have been smarter about things. She should have had her priorities straight.

It's not hard to see which one would take priority.

Chloe's purpose: To make the meteor infected feel more supported and further her foundation.

Clark's purpose: To save lives and stop a mass murderer.

This isn't meant to bash Chloe, it's just a truthful and honest look at the facts. Maybe it's Brianiac already taking over Chloe's mind.

[LuthorKent90]

Okay so if you all won't call him a jerk, would you call him a bad friend?

Then again.. it's so like Clark! He gets to accuse people without facts backing him up.
But when he gets questioned he gets all defensive "what does this have to do with me."

I get that Clark was desperate, but he shouldn't expect others to share everything in their lives with him without him doing the same.

[clarkbunny]

If you look at if from a "people are being killed and I want to save them" point of view. Chloe is the jerk here all the way. Maybe she wasn't trying to be a jerk, maybe she just made a really bad judgement call. What's her purpose for her actions? To "gain trust for her social help goup". How could anyone think that takes top priority over saving people's lives? I don't know. Even professional psychologists and therapists turn over information to the police if they think someone's life is in danger.

In a murder investigation Chloe would have been required to hand over her list. Clark just didn't take the time to get a warrant or get the police involved legally first. Something is wrong with this picture. It's not just a who's right, who's wrong argument. Chloe should have been smarter about things. She should have had her priorities straight.

It's not hard to see which one would take priority.

Chloe's purpose: To make the meteor infected feel more supported and further her foundation.

Clark's purpose: To save lives and stop a mass murderer.

This isn't meant to bash Chloe, it's just a truthful and honest look at the facts. Maybe it's Brianiac already taking over Chloe's mind.

So your saying it's OK to compromise patient trust and information security for 'the greater good'? Would it be OK for Clark to take a list of names from alcoholics anonymous based on a report of a drunken attack on somebody in Metropolis?

Would you be happy for your doctor to sell your information to drugs companies without your permission on the premise that the drugs companies could offer you drugs that would make you feel better? Would that make it OK?

Clark knew Chloe was dealing with vulnerable people and was in a position of trust. Taking the details not only undermined Chloe's standing with her patients it also betrayed the trust of the people she was trying to help. It was the lowest thing Clark could have done.

The correct way to do things was to get Chloe to ask the group members if they were willing to speak to clark or the police. Just because the information was there did not make it right for Clark to use it.

Call it Clark being a jerk, call it Clark not seeing the big picture and the error of his actions. There are no two ways about it Clark was wrong to do what he did.

[wolverine316]

What I love about Clark is even though Chloe blew it big time especially with that disgraceful "coward" comment from her he still went back at the end and apologized. Even though he didn't need to. Funny, didn't hear Chloe apologize to him.

[Mars Investigations]

What I love about Clark is even though Chloe blew it big time especially with that disgraceful "coward" comment from her he still went back at the end and apologized. Even though he didn't need to. Funny, didn't hear Chloe apologize to him.

She had nothing to apologise for. He was in the wrong - he stole from her, he decived her, he betrayed her trust, he disregarded her opinion. After all that, he then used her ability to find interpret his ill-gotten evidence.

[clarkbunny]

^
Apologise to Clark for what? You don't think Clark needed to apologise? :eek:

this is at Wolverine's comment by the way

[Sweetie]

Clark did not crossed the line at all.People were being murdered.He had to study all the possibilities out there even if that meant to suspect some of Chloe's freaks.I hated to see Clark apologizing for something that he had every right to do and Chloe just stood there saying that she can be a little stubborn.That's all,miss Sullivan???CK had to go behind your back,you didn't give him any choice.After all,he was only trying to save lives not as important as protecting your reputation.

[Kalista]

I love Clark. He made a mistake because he was under pressure and he was trying to save lives. He will learn from it and make better decisions in the future.

[BadToad]

Okay so if you all won't call him a jerk, would you call him a bad friend?

No, why would this one incident categorize him as a bad friend?


Then again.. it's so like Clark! He gets to accuse people without facts backing him up.

Clark did have a valid reason to suspect that someone meteor infected might be involved. Lets take an example from the past...the episode Wither. Chloe calls Clark for his help because they find that dead girl up a tree. The reason she wants Clark's help is because she suspects the culprit was someone meteor enhanced, since a normal human most likely could not have murdered in that way. I don't recall people screaming that Chloe was a jerk, or a bigot, or profiling when she did that. It was a logical conclusion from what she knows, and what she's seen, and since there was another teenager out there missing, she felt justified in bringing Clark into the investigation to find out what happened.


I get that Clark was desperate, but he shouldn't expect others to share everything in their lives with him without him doing the same.

And I don't get where Clark was expecting anyone to share everything in their lives. But is it so unreasonable to question the other members of the group in a murder investigation of one of their own members? I think not, IMO


Would it be OK for Clark to take a list of names from alcoholics anonymous based on a report of a drunken attack on somebody in Metropolis?

If a member of one of the groups had just met, and one of their members was murdered in that way immediately leaving a meeting, then yes, I think Clark, or law enforcement, has the right to question those people. Not arrest them. Not harass them. Not publically release their names in the papers. But to question them in an ongoing murder investigation. Absolutely!


There are no two ways about it Clark was wrong to do what he did.

Obviously there are 2 ways if people don't share your opinion. A little "IMO" would go a long way here.


She had nothing to apologise for. He was in the wrong - he stole from her, he decived her, he betrayed her trust, he disregarded her opinion. After all that, he then used her ability to find interpret his ill-gotten evidence.

She had every reason to apologize. Implying that Clark is a coward, or that his coming forward would somehow be the same as people who are meteor infected, might be something she said in the heat of anger. But usually when someone levels a low blow like that in an arguement, they can be a big enough person to apologize once the dust settles. Clark apologized. Chloe did not. She should've, IMO. At least for her cheapshot comments. If she doesn't apologize for her general position, I have no issue with that. Though finding out that one of "her kids" was indeed a murderer should be cause for her to question her previous stance.


Apologise to Clark for what?

See above.

Also, I do think Clark should've apologized, personally. I'm glad he did. I'm glad that he's questioning his actions, and I'm glad that he's learning as he goes. And I'm glad he showed remorse for hurting his friend, and for making her feel betrayed. To me, Clark apologizing is proof positive of just how much he's NOT a jerk. IMO

And again, I think its important to reiterate that if Chloe is in a position of trust, and if Chloe is going to take responsibility for counseling (something she has ZERO qualifications to do) a group as potentially volatile as the meteor infected, that she also has the responsiblity to perform her due diligence and make sure her members are safe and secure, potentially from each other. Personally, I think a group session is potentially hazardous for any number of reasons, and Clark following up on them in the aftermath of a murder is about the least hazardous I can think of. What would prevent Tess from sending in someone to infilitrate the group, and get all the names and have them rounded up? What would prevent another Van McNulty from reading Chloe's advertisement, and deciding that this would be a great way to rid the world of the blight of the meteor freaks? What safeguards and precautions has Chloe put into place? To me, those questions are as important, or even MORE important, then saying Clark was an awful person for turning over the groups names to one police officer, and a very special, trusted one at that, in order to question them about a murder of one of their own.

But I should qualify that I come from a family with a law enforcement presence, and so I'm on the side of the people trying to stop the murders. Not the ones more interested in protecting identities then all else. If there wasn't brutal murder involved, I'd be all for anonymity. But murder changes the game for me. YMMV.

[Black Panda]

I love Clark. He made a mistake because he was under pressure and he was trying to save lives. He will learn from it and make better decisions in the future.
Chiri said this very well, Clark needs stabilizers in his life, and he is shown very much alone right now.


I don't recall people screaming that Chloe was a jerk, or a bigot, or profiling when she did that. It was a logical conclusion from what she knows, and what she's seen, and since there was another teenager out there missing, she felt justified in bringing Clark into the investigation to find out what happened.
Pretty much that's the crux of it for me. In the real world there are privacy safeguards for very important reasons. It's easy to jump to conclusions. But Chloe's usual MO is to look for the possible meteor freak.

The really suspicious thing here is she refuses to. Sure, she is voicing a legitimate complaint from the audience that the good guys have no regard for the law. Therapists are supposed to keep their info confidential unless they can prevent a pending crime, we know that. It is really OOC though that Chloe doesn't seem to want to help solve the crime. Again, while SV does OOC all the time, in this case I think that is quite deliberate.


Implying that Clark is a coward, or that his coming forward would somehow be the same as people who are meteor infected, might be something she said in the heat of anger. But usually when someone levels a low blow like that in an arguement, they can be a big enough person to apologize once the dust settles. Clark apologized. Chloe did not.
Yeah, Chloe has been full of insulting and derisive remarks lately hasn't she? She has a history of snark, but it's been more mocking, less playful recently. Not so odd coming from Milton Fine.

[SnowBird]

And again, I think its important to reiterate that if Chloe is in a position of trust, and if Chloe is going to take responsibility for counseling (something she has ZERO qualifications to do) a group as potentially volatile as the meteor infected, that she also has the responsiblity to perform her due diligence and make sure her members are safe and secure, potentially from each other. Personally, I think a group session is potentially hazardous for any number of reasons, and Clark following up on them in the aftermath of a murder is about the least hazardous I can think of. What would prevent Tess from sending in someone to infilitrate the group, and get all the names and have them rounded up? What would prevent another Van McNulty from reading Chloe's advertisement, and deciding that this would be a great way to rid the world of the blight of the meteor freaks? What safeguards and precautions has Chloe put into place? To me, those questions are as important, or even MORE important, then saying Clark was an awful person for turning over the groups names to one police officer, and a very special, trusted one at that, in order to question them about a murder of one of their own

Very well said and I agree....The Isis foundation has proven to be an open door facility with most everyone just walking in since it opened and then this year: Tess was found there alone by Clark. Davis was found there alone by Chloe with papers and computer screens all telling of how smart she is. The two villians of Smallville you don't want to be there alone. Yet, Chloe still leaves the names of her meteor infected group out in the open for anyone to see. Since Clark apologized to her, he must have felt he crossed the line with Chloe because of their friendship. Chloe still needs to take responsibility for her actions as she isn't blameless...By the way, I thought Clark's new speed reading ability is pretty cool. It seems though he also has the ability to memorize what he reads.

[old guy]

I don't think Clark crossed the line here. First of all, I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what the law would say and I certainly don't know what the state law of whatever state Metropolis is in would be. To the best of my knowledge, Chloe is not a doctor nor a licensed therapist, therefore it would seem to me that ISIS is nothing more than a private club. I don't know what confidentiality agreements the patients have to sign when they go to ISIS for "sessions" - I've gotten the impression that it was more of an informal "just drop by" type of thing and thus they may not have signed any confidentiality agreements. Nor do I know what the bylaws of ISIS say about having to provide confidentiality; or if ISIS even has any bylaws. So while visitors may desire confidentiality, I don't know if they have any "right" or "legal expectation" of it.

Then again, Chloe just left the names of the attendees sitting on top of a desk. They weren't even locked up. Clark just looked at something in plain view - once Chloe took it from him, I don't recall any scene in which Clark "stole" the list away from her, broke into any cabinet to retrieve the list, etc. As far as I can recall, he looked at something in plain view, and even though he asked for the list when Chloe took it, she refused to give it back to him. At that point, Clark just relied on memory of what he saw in open plain view - he never stole the list after Chloe denied him access. Even if Clark were a cop, he wouldn't need a search warrant for something left in plain view. He would need a search warrant to seek information that was not in plain view (i.e. in a desk or file cabinet) but a) Clark isn't a cop and b) he didn't do that anyway.

Yes, Clark does get a bit "focused" when he's trying to save lives from a mass murderer. If you want to fault him for not just sitting on his rear end while people are dying, then fine. I'm not sure that is such a terrible flaw to have.+

[smallvillerocks45]

See IMO, the the only mistake Clark made was going behind Chloe's back to get the Isis group member names (as opposed to getting permission)- other than that, it is only logical to investigate who those people were. Regardless of their meteor powers, they were the last people to see Mary alive, and it was totally logical to want to question them.

Yes, it was absolutely wrong to steal the list and pass it on to John Jones, but at the same time, his method was probably best at the end of the day, because John Jones, who also has an ambiguous past, would not harass these people but does have a badge that "should" encourage truthful responses. Had the "regular" police been involved, it may have been a different story.

I don't think Clark was a jerk, he just used poor judgment. That doesn't make him a bad friend either - it especially shouldn't under Chloe's eyes considering she did much of the same when she was reporting for the Torch. Consecutive use of said judgment could eventually make him a jerk, but the fact that after everything was said and done, he realized that he did go too far, and even said as much in his apology, makes him less of a jerk in my eyes. He just made a mistake, but he's still a good "person," a good friend, and because he now sees the error of his ways, he will probably go about the situation differently.

What I don't understand is how what he did to Chloe is any different to anything done earlier in the series. I mean, for instance, Lois and Clark snuck into the Metropolis Hospital to get records of the victim in "Plastique," they took information that had not yet been released to the public, but would we consider them jerks for having done it? Is he being called a jerk because he stole the information or because he stole it from Chloe? He apologized for his actions, but at the end of the day, if Clark can use his powers to help someone - isn't that the point? Isn't Clark supposed to use his "bonus features" for a good cause? Maybe I'm not as versed on the Superman cannon or comic books as others, but as far as the Smallville universe is concerned, I don't think Clark's actions were inconsistent with anything that has been done before. I mean, just think of Green Arrow being considered a terrorist for stealing files from Lex - yes he was stealing files, but at the end of the day do we really think Green Arrow is a terrorist? It is a really thin line, and it is very difficult to look at what is wrong versus what is right - especially when someone's life depends on it. All I can say is that in the future, Clark just needs to learn to be more careful about overstepping his boundaries, and if Smallville is really meant to show his development then I would take this as an opportunity to do just that.

[clarkbunny]

It doesn't matter whether or not the patients signed a confidentiality agreement or if Chloe was a licensed counsellor or had the required skills. There are general data protection laws which apply in every country which state that if you are to gather and store people's information then you have a duty to ensure that information is secure and is only used for the purposes you have set out to the people whose info you took.

Chloe failed in her duty to protect her clients info by leaving the list in full view for Clark/anybody who walked in to see. Also in her delay in taking the list from Clark when he picked it up. Just goes to show her lack of experience in running such a centre. Lana ran the place better - more discreet and patient details were kept confidential.

Clark didn't break into the draw to take the list but he did see the list on the table and thought nothing of picking it up and reading it. He crossed the line there and breached client confidentiality.

It would have been OK if he had left it at that but to then ACT on the information which he should not have been privy to in the first place crossed the line even further. He definitely should not have given the list to J'onn Johns. That's why J'onn asked Clark where he got the list from.

[old guy]

It doesn't matter whether or not the patients signed a confidentiality agreement or if Chloe was a licensed counsellor or had the required skills. There are general data protection laws which apply in every country which state that if you are to gather and store people's information then you have a duty to ensure that information is secure and is only used for the purposes you have set out to the people whose info you took.



I don't believe that is necessarily correct. Again, I don't know what state Metropolis is supposed to be in, but let's just assume it is in the United States given that it is supposed to be somewhat close to Smallville, Kansas. The U.S. takes a different view toward data privacy protection than the European Union Data Protection Directive. In the U.S., they take the very different approach by regulating privacy protection by specific industry. In the U.S., that would be the health care industry and the financial services industry. Assuming that ISIS is not a government agency, it would not qualify as a private health care organization given that virtually everyone here agreed that Chloe is not a licensed doctor. Therefore, any patient privacy rules governed by HIPAA would not apply. I also do not believe that ISIS is a financial services organization. Therefore, privacy protection governed by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (GLBA) does not apply.

In addition, I believe the only information listed on the document was an attendance list. It didn't appear (from the quick shot of the list of names Clark gave to Jonn) that there was any information such as address, SSN, medical history (to include meteor freak symptoms, history, or frequency), etc. Should Chloe have locked up an attendance list? Perhaps, but neither HIPAA nor GLBA would have required it. But the title of this thread isn't "did Chloe cross the line" - it is "did Clark cross the line". Clark saw information not protected by U.S. statute sitting out in the open. Remember, it was out in plain view. If you get pulled over for speeding and the cop sees illegal drugs sitting out on your dashboard, you are busted. No they cannot search your trunk without your permission to look for contraband, but if you are dumb enough to leave it in plain view, they aren't expected to just "pretend" they never saw it. Clark believed that the information left in plain view was relevant to a homicide investigation and provided it to the cops. Did he cross a line in his friendship with Chloe? I think he may have thought so and he went back later to apologize. Did he violate any laws (i.e. breaking into a hospital to steal patient information with Lois)? I don't think so, thus I don't think he crossed the line here. And the line does get a little blurry when there are numerous lives at stake.

[clarkbunny]

See IMO, the the only mistake Clark made was going behind Chloe's back to get the Isis group member names (as opposed to getting permission)- other than that, it is only logical to investigate who those people were. Regardless of their meteor powers, they were the last people to see Mary alive, and it was totally logical to want to question them.

Yes, it was absolutely wrong to steal the list and pass it on to John Jones, but at the same time, his method was probably best at the end of the day, because John Jones, who also has an ambiguous past, would not harass these people but does have a badge that "should" encourage truthful responses. Had the "regular" police been involved, it may have been a different story.

I don't think Clark was a jerk, he just used poor judgment. That doesn't make him a bad friend either - it especially shouldn't under Chloe's eyes considering she did much of the same when she was reporting for the Torch. Consecutive use of said judgment could eventually make him a jerk, but the fact that after everything was said and done, he realized that he did go too far, and even said as much in his apology, makes him less of a jerk in my eyes. He just made a mistake, but he's still a good "person," a good friend, and because he now sees the error of his ways, he will probably go about the situation differently.

What I don't understand is how what he did to Chloe is any different to anything done earlier in the series. I mean, for instance, Lois and Clark snuck into the Metropolis Hospital to get records of the victim in "Plastique," they took information that had not yet been released to the public, but would we consider them jerks for having done it? Is he being called a jerk because he stole the information or because he stole it from Chloe? He apologized for his actions, but at the end of the day, if Clark can use his powers to help someone - isn't that the point? Isn't Clark supposed to use his "bonus features" for a good cause? Maybe I'm not as versed on the Superman cannon or comic books as others, but as far as the Smallville universe is concerned, I don't think Clark's actions were inconsistent with anything that has been done before. I mean, just think of Green Arrow being considered a terrorist for stealing files from Lex - yes he was stealing files, but at the end of the day do we really think Green Arrow is a terrorist? It is a really thin line, and it is very difficult to look at what is wrong versus what is right - especially when someone's life depends on it. All I can say is that in the future, Clark just needs to learn to be more careful about overstepping his boundaries, and if Smallville is really meant to show his development then I would take this as an opportunity to do just that.

Indeed given Clark and Chloe's own record of information abuse it is hard to argue where the wrong is here :lol:

I would say Clark was being a 'jerk' because he abused his position as Chloe's friend and his powers to steal the list from Chloe - when he KNEW that Chloe was in a position of trust and had a duty to keep her client's info safe. Chloe did not take steps to secure the list when Clark came in because she trusted him as her friend not to look at the list.
Once she saw him look at the list she took it off him and refused to give it to him. He misused his powers to remember what he had seen and then abused his position as Chloe's friend which gave him access to the list and passed the list on to the police.

I guess the moral of the story is you don't crap in your own backyard :rotfl: If your friend is tasked with keeping people's information confidential you don't abuse your position as their friend to steal that info from them and give it to the police - that makes you a bad friend/jerk.

Stealing files from hospitals/hacking into computers etc. is wrong however in that scenario they are not screwing anyone over to get the info.

[carrieszczepanski]

I guess the moral of the story is you don't crap in your own backyard :rotfl: If your friend is tasked with keeping people's information confidential you don't abuse your position as their friend to steal that info from them and give it to the police - that makes you a bad friend/jerk.

That's true, that does make him a bad friend/jerk.

He should have trusted her more, and asked her if he could take a look, maybe find some info without harming who she was trying to help.

[Hoshi_Reed]

This isn't a matter of who was right or wrong. It has become Chloe verses Clark. Those who like Chloe will be on her side. Those who like Clark will be on his side. I don't think there is going to be an unbiased opinion for the most part...Personally, the end justified the means in this case. Chloe seemed out of character with not wanting to help Clark. This is expected considering how her future is shaping up. They are written this year to be growing farther apart so the list was used to bring on a disagreement to put that wedge between them. It isn't going to be the last time they won't see eye to eye.
I don't think it is Chloe vs Clark at all but more Freedom vs Security. I think our personal POLITICAL views will bias us towards our decision, NOT our character preference.


That's a poor excuse though. That's essentially racial or ethnic profiling at best.
THANK YOU. I thought I was the only one to see this smacked of that hot button issue.


Clark did not crossed the line at all.People were being murdered.He had to study all the possibilities out there even if that meant to suspect some of Chloe's freaks.I hated to see Clark apologizing for something that he had every right to do and Chloe just stood there saying that she can be a little stubborn.That's all,miss Sullivan???CK had to go behind your back,you didn't give him any choice.After all,he was only trying to save lives not as important as protecting your reputation.
That is like saying police and government aren't crossing the line when they racially or ethnically profile people. "Statistically" terrorist are Muslims, "Statistically" certain crimes are mostly committed by Blacks. Clark didn't have every right to suspect ALL freaks.

Again, it all comes down to our personal political stance. Which I'm assuming was the whole point of the episode; to get us talking about such issues in the first place.

[clarkbunny]

In addition, I believe the only information listed on the document was an attendance list. It didn't appear (from the quick shot of the list of names Clark gave to Jonn) that there was any information such as address, SSN, medical history (to include meteor freak symptoms, history, or frequency), etc. Should Chloe have locked up an attendance list? Perhaps, but neither HIPAA nor GLBA would have required it. But the title of this thread isn't "did Chloe cross the line" - it is "did Clark cross the line". Clark saw information not protected by U.S. statute sitting out in the open. Remember, it was out in plain view. If you get pulled over for speeding and the cop sees illegal drugs sitting out on your dashboard, you are busted. No they cannot search your trunk without your permission to look for contraband, but if you are dumb enough to leave it in plain view, they aren't expected to just "pretend" they never saw it. Clark believed that the information left in plain view was relevant to a homicide investigation and provided it to the cops. Did he cross a line in his friendship with Chloe? I think he may have thought so and he went back later to apologize. Did he violate any laws (i.e. breaking into a hospital to steal patient information with Lois)? I don't think so, thus I don't think he crossed the line here. And the line does get a little blurry when there are numerous lives at stake.

The question isn't did Chloe cross the line true - but she did fail in protecting her clients details.

Clark did not break any laws in obtaining the list but he definitely crossed the line by picking up the list and reading it after initially seeing it on the table. He crossed the line again when he acted on that info by writing it down with a plan to investigate the individuals himself and later giving it to J'onn.

If you were in a doctor's surgery and noticed a patients file on the receptionist's desk and saw it was your friend's file that wouldn't be a problem. If you then ACTED on the fact it was your friend's file and picked up the file and read through it that would definitely be crossing the line.

[SnowBird]

It doesn't matter whether or not the patients signed a confidentiality agreement or if Chloe was a licensed counsellor or had the required skills. There are general data protection laws which apply in every country which state that if you are to gather and store people's information then you have a duty to ensure that information is secure and is only used for the purposes you have set out to the people whose info you took.

Do you have anything official in writing that backs up what you are saying about the law? If not, maybe you should add "IMO" to your post.

To me they were only a group of young people including Chloe because she is only 21/22 sitting around talking about their daily lives. Take for instance, like a group of ladies at a missionary meeting talking about themselves and the problems of the world. The leader takes attendance which results in a list of names. There isn't any phone numbers or addresses or information of any kind on the sheet of paper...How are these two lists of names protected by law? If it is, I had better go right away and destroy the list of names I may happen to have in my home like my Christmas list.

The Isis is NOT a government run facility. It is privately owned like a home. The only thing Clark did wrong was take a list of names from a friend without her permission and he apologized for that and only that. He did NOT commit a crime of any kind. He only failed on a trust issue with Chloe. It is not a crime to tell the police you have possible suspects to a murder of one of their own. A list of names is only that, names on a piece of paper that Clark memorized for the sake of stopping brutal murders and did not break any law. I rest my case.

[clarkbunny]

^
I never said Clark broke any laws. I said Chloe failed in her duty to protect her client's info.

Chloe may not be a qualified counsellor/practitioner but the Isis foundation was set up by Lana as a charitable organisation to help meteor infected people as such the foundation (now run by Chloe) has a duty to protect those people's details.

Yes Clark did fail on a trust issue. The question was whether he was a bad friend/jerk and the answer is yes for that reason.

[SnowBird]

I don't think it is Chloe vs Clark at all but more Freedom vs Security. I think our personal POLITICAL views will bias us towards our decision, NOT our character preference.

So are you telling me that someone who is a fan of Chloe isn't going to be on her side in a debate between her and Clark (same for a Clark fan)? This forum is filled with posts that are prejudice because of liking one character more than another. Maybe you aren't, but there are others who are and it is showing up in this thread, imo.

[BadToad]

If your friend is tasked with keeping people's information confidential you don't abuse your position as their friend to steal that info from them and give it to the police - that makes you a bad friend/jerk.

Except you are completely leaving out the context. You are completely ignoring what spurred Clark on to obtain that list, and you are ignoring how it was handled after that.

And why is it so necessary for people to want to name call Clark names all the time? Just a personal peeve of mine.


Stealing files from hospitals/hacking into computers etc. is wrong however in that scenario they are not screwing anyone over to get the info.

Sure they are. Its just not Chloe, which is what I think this is all about.


That's true, that does make him a bad friend/jerk.

Then, ya know, Chloe should definitely stay far away from him, and have nothing further to do with him. We wouldn't want her to be wasting her time with someone so awful.


Clark didn't have every right to suspect ALL freaks.

And he didn't. At what point in this episode did Clark announce that "ALL" freaks were suspect? Or even bad? Clark zeroed in on a very specific group...and I don't mean meteor infected people here. He zeroed in on the other members of the group that Mary had been a part of.


If you were in a doctor's surgery and noticed a patients file on the receptionist's desk and saw it was your friend's file that wouldn't be a problem. If you then ACTED on the fact it was your friend's file and picked up the file and read through it that would definitely be crossing the line.

And again, this example isn't comparable to me, IMO, because it eliminates the context and reason of what Clark did. Its not as if Clark just decided to go into Isis one day and start looking into Chloe's clients as a precaution, or because he had a bias against them. What sent him there was very specific, and involved murder on a horrifying scale. And I believe not factoring that into the equation is only looking at half the picture, IMO.

[SVrnFAN]

I could write the letters IMO for everything that follows, please understand, this is my opinion.


Clark was obsessed, not a jerk for taking the list.
The only thing he was a jerk about was belittling Chloe's new life by saying he wasn't going to waste time on the Kumbayah. That was pretty unkind and OOC.

Chloe was protective and stubborn for not working with Clark immediately but not a jerk.
The only thing she was a jerk about was telling Clark he was a coward for not stepping up. That was a hurtful thing to say, even if she felt betrayed (which she did).


Chloe was right by an objective point of view regarding the list --- Clark had no real probable cause. He at least should have made a case for what he was looking for.
Clark was right from a Smallville history point of view regarding looking for a MF as the culprit -- it was likely a MF and they needed to look for someone who could fit the crime.

But by grabbing the list with zero pre-amble and just sending off MM for the random interrogation, I think TPTB went out of their way to show he was hasty. If they wanted to make it look like he was right and there was nothing wrong in his approach, they wouldn't have taken the tack they did. It was on purpose to show his obsession.

It was one of the major plot points of the episode to show he struggling with balance. Why on earth deny him this little development plot (and thank goodness we finally got one!) by trying to say there was nothing he learned in the end?

And of course in the end Clark himself said he went over the line.

This is not a Chloe vs Clark fight -- both characters were right and wrong, that was the message they were trying to send. Not a one vs the other.

IMO of course.

Wow! Very good review of the episode - you should do reviews of every show. Very unbiased. I agree with your understanding of the show - the writing showed us the struggle that Clark is having by accepting his fate and finding a balance with it. I thought this was one of the best episodes since the premiere.

[SnowBird]

^
I never said Clark broke any laws. I said Chloe failed in her duty to protect her client's info.

Chloe may not be a qualified counsellor/practitioner but the Isis foundation was set up by Lana as a charitable organisation to help meteor infected people as such the foundation (now run by Chloe) has a duty to protect those people's details.

Yes Clark did fail on a trust issue. The question was whether he was a bad friend/jerk and the answer is yes for that reason.

So now are you saying Chloe is the one breaking the law because she failed in her duty to protect her clients?

Here is the definition of Jerk. (Websters Dictionary). Since you are calling Clark a Jerk, which word or words best discribes what you think he is.

a: an annoyingly stupid or foolish person
b: an unlikable person ; especially : one who is cruel, rude, or small-minded

[Sweetie]

I don't think it is Chloe vs Clark at all but more Freedom vs Security. I think our personal POLITICAL views will bias us towards our decision, NOT our character preference.


THANK YOU. I thought I was the only one to see this smacked of that hot button issue.


That is like saying police and government aren't crossing the line when they racially or ethnically profile people. "Statistically" terrorist are Muslims, "Statistically" certain crimes are mostly committed by Blacks. Clark didn't have every right to suspect ALL freaks.

Again, it all comes down to our personal political stance. Which I'm assuming was the whole point of the episode; to get us talking about such issues in the first place.


Clark didn't suspect all of the freaks of the world but,only a bunch who were spotted at the crime's scene.I don't see what the problem is?

[Cyn]

This isn't a matter of who was right or wrong. It has become Chloe verses Clark. Those who like Chloe will be on her side. Those who like Clark will be on his side. I don't think there is going to be an unbiased opinion for the most part...Personally, the end justified the means in this case. Chloe seemed out of character with not wanting to help Clark. This is expected considering how her future is shaping up. They are written this year to be growing farther apart so the list was used to bring on a disagreement to put that wedge between them. It isn't going to be the last time they won't see eye to eye.

Actually, that's not entirely true. I have stated in multiple posts on various threads that I am NOT a Chloe fan. I don't hate her, but she is by far not my favorite character. However, I DID not like the way Clark behaved toward her in this episode. CK is not a jerk, but he did act a bit jerkish toward Chloe in this episode. It was a matter of trust. He should not have stolen the list from Chloe without first having some real evidence.

[clarkbunny]

So now are you saying Chloe is the one breaking the law because she failed in her duty to protect her clients?

Here is the definition of Jerk. Since you are calling Clark a Jerk, which word or words best discribes what you think he is.

a: an annoyingly stupid or foolish person
b: an unlikable person ; especially : one who is cruel, rude, or small-minded

I am not calling Clark a jerk, that is the name of the thread and merely responding to the question posed. I took it to mean did Clark act irresponsibly and as a poor friend to Chloe - to which my answer is yes.

Badtoad the context of why Clark took the list is irrelevant. He should not have gone behind Chloe's back and taken the list. If he wanted to question her clients he should have asked Chloe to contact them herself and allowed them to contact him. The information was not his to take.

Also, they knew it was a meteor infected person that was conducting the killings but they didn't know that it was one of Chloe's clients. It could have been any of the numerous meteor freaks in metropolis. Not all of them came to the Isis foundation. Clark was taking advantage of the fact that he had the names of some meteor freaks there in front of him. In a way he was targeting them because he had access to their information.

IMO the Isis clients were not automatically suspects. There had been a spate of killings in the area and Mary was killed in a similar manner to the previous killings. Just because Mary was a member of the support group does not mean someone in the group killed her. The group members came voluntarily to get help not so they could be targeted as suspects any time a meteor freak related killing took place. That is why Chloe was protecting their info. If Clark was investigating the killings he needed to look at the big picture in his investigation not target that group just because they were meteor freaks.

[SnowBird]

I am not calling Clark a jerk, that is the name of the thread and merely responding to the question posed. I took it to mean did Clark act irresponsibly and as a poor friend to Chloe - to which my answer is yes.

clarkbunny...These are your exact words: "The question was whether he was a bad friend/jerk and the answer is yes for that reason."

It looks to me like you were calling Clark a Jerk. Now, are you taking back what you said?

[wolverine316]

the context of why Clark took the list is irrelevant. He should not have gone behind Chloe's back and taken the list. If he wanted to question her clients he should have asked Chloe to contact them herself and allowed them to contact him. The information was not his to take.



Can you guarantee that if Clark went down this route she still would have cooperated? I doubt it. Even before Clark saw the list she was very defensive when Clark first brought up that the crime could have been done by a meteor infected person. She acted like a mother hen protecting her children.

[DestinyAw8s]

Here is the definition of Jerk. (Websters Dictionary). Since you are calling Clark a Jerk, which word or words best discribes what you think he is.

a: an annoyingly stupid or foolish person
b: an unlikable person ; especially : one who is cruel, rude, or small-minded
Clark was none of the above. IMO
He was not a jerk nor did he do anything legally or ethically wrong. IMO What he did do was on a personal level between him and Chloe. He simply dismissed her objections, which he later apologized for.
Nor do I think that he was a jerk for his "kumbaya" remark. Where would anyone get the idea that Clark's abilities, his origins, and his cause is anywhere near that of Chloe and her little group? The assumption is ridiculous and Clark was merely pointing that out to Chloe, albeit in a rather brisk manner. But, nonetheless, she got his point, I would hope. I know I did.
Chloe seemed quite defensive towards Clark in this episode, and given that she has long been privy to Clark's secret, not to mention, personal encounters with the less attractive side of meteor freaks, I really can't figure out why. Unless it had something to do with the opening scene where the "kids" showed definite distrust of her, the "establishment", and one another. Maybe she's just trying to prove herself to them or something is all I can come up with.
Was Chloe stubborn, as she said? I don't feel that she was. As I stated above, maybe she really believed in what she was saying about her trust issue with her "kids". But she was mean and hurtful towards Clark in this episode and seemed to completely disregard what he's all about, which is totally unlike her. I don't know what's up with her. I'll have to give it a few more episodes to decide. As for now, she has me scratching my head.
Of course, this is all from my personal perspective.

[Bizarrolover]

At least, Clark apologized for what he did. Chloe not only called him a coward for not 'coming out' but she never admitted that he was right in being suspicious. After what happened with Plastique she should know better. She should do a more extensive psicological profile of the 'kids' she's counseling. MF can go nuts in just one second (Pete and Lana are good examples of nice people suddenly becoming pshychos because of Kryptonite) and just because they are attending therapy sessions doesen't mean they aren't dangerous.

[clarkbunny]

Can you guarantee that if Clark went down this route she still would have cooperated? I doubt it. Even before Clark saw the list she was very defensive when Clark first brought up that the crime could have been done by a meteor infected person. She acted like a mother hen protecting her children.

No, there was no guarantee that Chloe would have co-operated BUT they are her clients - it was her call to make not Clark's. Clark did not have the right to just TAKE the list.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


clarkbunny...These are your exact words: "The question was whether he was a bad friend/jerk and the answer is yes for that reason."

It looks to me like you were calling Clark a Jerk. Now, are you taking back what you said?

I am not taking back what I said, as I mentioned before I was responding to the thread title - which was whether he acted like a jerk. Those are the thread starter's choice of words and not mine - they chose the word jerk. I was saying Clark acted dishonorably and in that sense I agreed with the thread title.

[old guy]

I still haven't seen anything here that convinces me that Clark crossed the line. Certainly not a legal line. Morally? Keeping this within the context of Smallville, looking at an attendance list left in plain view, particularly with Chloe, is very much within the context and clearly consistent with what both of them have engaged in multiple times before. In fact, looking at a list kept in plain view is no where near crossing the line as hacking into private, government, and even classified computer files as Chloe has done more often than I can count. And while I don't think that is necessarily right, look at the context when Chloe and Clark engaged in those behaviors - they were typically investigating cases in which they believed that someone's life was at stake. I don't see how this is different. There were a number of homicides in which it was apparent that the instigator was someone possessing super/meteor abilities. Clark and Chloe worked together numerous times gathering information from whatever sources they could get their hands on. And now, when all of a sudden Chloe balks at this after engaging in far more blatant behavior countless times with Clark, Clark is supposed to be a jerk? I don't think so. I think Clark deserved more of an apology from Chloe than the other way around.

[Kevin24]

I still haven't seen anything here that convinces me that Clark crossed the line. Certainly not a legal line. Morally? Keeping this within the context of Smallville, looking at an attendance list left in plain view, particularly with Chloe, is very much within the context and clearly consistent with what both of them have engaged in multiple times before. In fact, looking at a list kept in plain view is no where near crossing the line as hacking into private, government, and even classified computer files as Chloe has done more often than I can count. And while I don't think that is necessarily right, look at the context when Chloe and Clark engaged in those behaviors - they were typically investigating cases in which they believed that someone's life was at stake. I don't see how this is different. There were a number of homicides in which it was apparent that the instigator was someone possessing super/meteor abilities. Clark and Chloe worked together numerous times gathering information from whatever sources they could get their hands on. And now, when all of a sudden Chloe balks at this after engaging in far more blatant behavior countless times with Clark, Clark is supposed to be a jerk? I don't think so. I think Clark deserved more of an apology from Chloe than the other way around.

I completely and utterly agree with everything you have just said!

[clarkbunny]

^
When they have acted together it has still been wrong but they were working together towards a cause. However to use those methods to steal from your friend especially when they have told you that you can't have the info is dishonorable.

Mary was killed by a meteor freak, there had been a series of meteor freak related killings in the city. Just because the group members were meteor freaks did not mean they were suspects. They deserve the same level of anonymity that the rest of the unknown meteor freaks in Metropolis had. They came to Chloe for help not to ave their details handed over to the police as prime suspects because they had identified themselves. Why didn't Clark hand over Chloe's name to J'onn as well?

[SnowBird]

I am not taking back what I said, as I mentioned before I was responding to the thread title - which was whether he acted like a jerk. Those are the thread starter's choice of words and not mine - they chose the word jerk. I was saying Clark acted dishonorably and in that sense I agreed with the thread title.

Say what you will. I have another interpretation of what you said and I will leave it at that. This thread is all about a personal point of view and just because we may not agree doesn't mean there is a right answer, imo. It was an interesting debate...Thanks:)

[old guy]

^
Mary was killed by a meteor freak, there had been a series of meteor freak related killings in the city. Just because the group members were meteor freaks did not mean they were suspects. They deserve the same level of anonymity that the rest of the unknown meteor freaks in Metropolis had. They came to Chloe for help not to ave their details handed over to the police as prime suspects because they had identified themselves. Why didn't Clark hand over Chloe's name to J'onn as well?

As far as I know, the only ability that Clark suspects of Chloe is a turbo brain. I wasn't aware super strength was on of Chloe's powers. From looking at what was left of the Ace of Clubs, it appeared to be the work of someone with super strength rather than a super brain.

[clarkbunny]

You know I have come to the conclusion that Clark did discriminate against the Isis group members by taking the list.

[old guy]

You know I have come to the conclusion that Clark did discriminate against the Isis group members by taking the list.

I understand that is your opinion. I was just answering your question as to why Clark didn't give Chloe's name to Jonn.

[clarkbunny]

As far as I know, the only ability that Clark suspects of Chloe is a turbo brain. I wasn't aware super strength was on of Chloe's powers. From looking at what was left of the Ace of Clubs, it appeared to be the work of someone with super strength rather than a super brain.

True Chloe doesn't have superstrength as far as Clark knows but Chloe kept her turbo brain skills a secret from Clark until he noticed it. How does he know that Chloe hasn't also inherited Brainiac's super strength?

Clark did not know what the group members' abilities were but he automatically suspected them just for the fact that they were meteor freaks. He didn't suspect Chloe when it could very well have been her if she had inherited additional skills from Brainiac. Chloe is a krypto-freak as well but he treats her differently to the rest of the group 'cos he knows her - definite discrimination going on there.

[Kevin24]

Am I the only one who remembers Clark seeing the video on the cell phone and then realizing from that video that it had to be someone with powers? I don't know but that tells me that he did not automatically assume when the murders happened that it was a krypto powered person.

It's like seeing someone on a video eating "a slice your chocolate cake" and then coming home to find it gone....I think it's safe to assume the person eating the cake on video is the one who ate it all?

Would me assuming it was the person in the video who was seen eating a piece of my cake be me "discriminating" aka being an ass towards that person? Or me making an educated guess that most likely it was him?

[old guy]

True Chloe doesn't have superstrength as far as Clark knows but Chloe kept her turbo brain skills a secret from Clark until he noticed it. How does he know that Chloe hasn't also inherited Brainiac's super strength?

Clark did not know what the group members' abilities were but he automatically suspected them just for the fact that they were meteor freaks. He didn't suspect Chloe when it could very well have been her if she had inherited additional skills from Brainiac. Chloe is a krypto-freak as well but he treats her differently to the rest of the group 'cos he knows her - definite discrimination going on there.

I think both Clark and Chloe would have to have irrefutable evidence against the other before they'd ever turn each other in. And I think they'd confront each other about it before turning in the other. When Clark says that he believes in the goodness of people, I think that is especially true when it comes to Chloe. And I think Chloe thinks the world of Clark. I just don't see them turning in the other unless all other avenues have been exhausted.

[clarkbunny]

I think both Clark and Chloe would have to have irrefutable evidence against the other before they'd ever turn each other in. And I think they'd confront each other about it before turning in the other. When Clark says that he believes in the goodness of people, I think that is especially true when it comes to Chloe. And I think Chloe thinks the world of Clark. I just don't see them turning in the other unless all other avenues have been exhausted.

Exactly! Clark would not turn Chloe's details over to the police unless he has unrefutable evidence against her. Yet he thought nothing of turning the group members details over to the police when he did not have any evidence that they commited the murders. He did it simply for the fact that they were meteor freaks and in his mind suspects - discrimination.

[BadToad]

Badtoad the context of why Clark took the list is irrelevant.

I disagree. I think it is completely relevant. You can't toss out the context. You can't toss out the SV history, and the longstanding experiances both Clark and Chloe have had with the meteor infected. You can't toss out the situation Clark had just come from, and the carnage he had just witnessed. You can't toss out of the fact that Chloe herself had engaged in the exact same suspicions towards the meteor infected, or the fact that Chloe was being uncharacteristically naive and trusting.

To me, all of this information is absolutely relevant, and definitely colors how I view what transpired. YMMV


If he wanted to question her clients he should have asked Chloe to contact them herself and allowed them to contact him.

And I don't disagree with that. Similarly, this is a conclusion Chloe should've come to on her own, without Clark even having to ask, because Chloe should've considered that Clark is not some crusading bigot, and he might actually have a point. But nothing about her demeanor suggested that Chloe was considering that at all.


In a way he was targeting them because he had access to their information.

And lets examine just how these poor people were persecuted or targeted...they got asked questions by a police officer. Namely J'onn Jones. Thats it. Thats all. I don't believe they were treated unfairly.


If Clark was investigating the killings he needed to look at the big picture in his investigation not target that group just because they were meteor freaks.

And why was Clark wrong to start the investigation where he did? Clearly he had to start somewhere, right? And Mary was killed coming from the Isis group, right? And Clark also kept himself open to other possibilities, which is why he started to look into Davis upon J'onn's tip. Investigations, private or police, need to start somewhere. And they generally start with the most likely suspects. That may not be PC enough for some, but that is reality.


When they have acted together it has still been wrong but they were working together towards a cause. However to use those methods to steal from your friend especially when they have told you that you can't have the info is dishonorable.

So, it was OK when Clark and Chloe stole, or hacked, their way into confidential informatin because they were working for a cause...but its not OK for Clark to be working for a cause (preventing murders, which seems like a pretty worthwhile cause to me), and taking information that Chloe seemed unwilling to share, even though it might very well have revealed a dangerous unstable person in her group? Because the reality is that Chloe *did* have a dangerous killer in her group. But hey, lets not let that little detail matter at all here.


They came to Chloe for help not to ave their details handed over to the police as prime suspects because they had identified themselves. Why didn't Clark hand over Chloe's name to J'onn as well?

Why would Clark have handed over Chloe's name? That makes no sense. And going by what we saw in the episode, I see no evidence of anything other then a policeman asking them some questions.

[clarkbunny]

Am I the only one who remembers Clark seeing the video on the cell phone and then realizing from that video that it had to be someone with powers? I don't know but that tells me that he did not automatically assume when the murders happened that it was a krypto powered person.

It's like seeing someone on a video eating "a slice your chocolate cake" and then coming home to find it gone....I think it's safe to assume the person eating the cake on video is the one who ate it all?

Would me assuming it was the person in the video who was seen eating a piece of my cake be me "discriminating" aka being an ass towards that person? Or me making an educated guess that most likely it was him?

Yes it would be you discriminating against the person that ate the slice of your cake.
But that anlaogy doesn't even apply to this situation.
Clark had already come to the conclusion that meteor freaks were responsible for the killings when he got to Isis centre. He took the list of names because the group members were krypto freaks which in his mind automatically made them suspects which was discrimination.

[Kevin24]

When did Clark already come to the conclusion it was krypto powered people?

Was it before or after he saw the video? because the epsiode I saw showed him watching the video then coming to the conclusion, off factual evidence, that it was someone with powers.

I am going to rewatch the scenes and if I am wrong about his discrimination I will say so but I will rewatch it to see if I remember it correctly.

[BadToad]

Was it before or after he saw the video? because the epsiode I saw showed him watching the video then coming to the conclusion, off factual evidence, that it was someone with powers.

Which is exactly what occured. Clark went to Isis after watching the cellphone camera footage with Jimmy. He did not look at the carnage and immediately go "Oh, this must've been a krypto freak". But once he had seen what transpired, and we know he also researched previous killings, I think he made a logical, deductive leap, and one that he and Chloe have made MANY times before. Maybe it wasn't PC enough for some, but given the parameters of Clark's world, as we've witnessed for 7+ seasons, I don't think he leapt without a net.

Oh, and BTW, since I can't say this enough....one of Chloe's group was a dangerously unstable killer. But lets not quibble about details.

[Hoshi_Reed]

And he didn't. At what point in this episode did Clark announce that "ALL" freaks were suspect? Or even bad? Clark zeroed in on a very specific group...and I don't mean meteor infected people here. He zeroed in on the other members of the group that Mary had been a part of.

Clark didn't suspect all of the freaks of the world but,only a bunch who were spotted at the crime's scene.I don't see what the problem is?

How was the Isis group connected to the Ace of Clubs, the crime scene in question? He didn't even know Mary was a part of the group. Mary died before he had dinner with Chloe. He didn't ask for the list because of her death, he asked for the list because he wanted to find who was responsible for the destruction and killings at the Ace of Clubs; the crime he failed to stop.

The Isis group wasn't connected to the Ace of Clubs so him asking for the list is not a very specific group related to the specific crime.

[SnowBird]

Oh, and BTW, since I can't say this enough....one of Chloe's group was a dangerously unstable killer. But lets not quibble about details.

Thanks for jumping in here. A voice of reason:)

[clarkbunny]

And lets examine just how these poor people were persecuted or targeted...they got asked questions by a police officer. Namely J'onn Jones. Thats it. Thats all. I don't believe they were treated unfairly.



And why was Clark wrong to start the investigation where he did? Clearly he had to start somewhere, right? And Mary was killed coming from the Isis group, right? And Clark also kept himself open to other possibilities, which is why he started to look into Davis upon J'onn's tip. Investigations, private or police, need to start somewhere. And they generally start with the most likely suspects. That may not be PC enough for some, but that is reality.



So, it was OK when Clark and Chloe stole, or hacked, their way into confidential informatin because they were working for a cause...but its not OK for Clark to be working for a cause (preventing murders, which seems like a pretty worthwhile cause to me), and taking information that Chloe seemed unwilling to share, even though it might very well have revealed a dangerous unstable person in her group? Because the reality is that Chloe *did* have a dangerous killer in her group. But hey, lets not let that little detail matter at all here.



Why would Clark have handed over Chloe's name? That makes no sense. And going by what we saw in the episode, I see no evidence of anything other then a policeman asking them some questions.

What you have just described right there is the general excuse for discrimination in the world at large. What harm does it do asking a few questions?

It does harm because the person being questioned who may be a perfectly law abiding citizen feels victimised for whatever reason - their colour, gender, age, way they dress, sexuality etc. They are being singled out when they have done nothing wrong when other people who are not in the suspicious group walk free and go about their business without suffering the same problems.

The impression I got was that Clark took the list 'cos they were meteor freaks and the murders were by meteor freaks. Not because the group members were the last people to see Mary alive.

The question was if Clark acted like a jerk. When they stole info together they were working together against something/someone else - it's not right but that's what they were doing. To steal information from your own friend because they won't give it to you in fact to steal anything from your friend is dishonorable and that is where the distinction is. Both acts of stealing are wrong but stealing from your friend makes you a bad person.

Clark should have handed over Chloe's details because she is also a meteor freak. If he is going to suspect people simply for the fact they are meteor freaks then why excuse Chloe just because she is his friend - it's only fair isn't it?

[old guy]

Which is exactly what occured. Clark went to Isis after watching the cellphone camera footage with Jimmy. He did not look at the carnage and immediately go "Oh, this must've been a krypto freak". But once he had seen what transpired, and we know he also researched previous killings, I think he made a logical, deductive leap, and one that he and Chloe have made MANY times before. Maybe it wasn't PC enough for some, but given the parameters of Clark's world, as we've witnessed for 7+ seasons, I don't think he leapt without a net.

Oh, and BTW, since I can't say this enough....one of Chloe's group was a dangerously unstable killer. But lets not quibble about details.

Precisely! Which is why I don't see starting with the list of meteor-powered individuals is wrong, discriminating, or crossing the line. The point of an investigation is to gather facts, and once individuals are cleared, they are no longer people of interest. As for the dangerous unstable killer in the group, I see nothing wrong with him being caught.

[Hoshi_Reed]

Oh, and BTW, since I can't say this enough....one of Chloe's group was a dangerously unstable killer. But lets not quibble about details.
And those responsible for terrorism like the London bombings or 9-11 are part of the Islamic culture. It doesn't make it right to suspect any and all Muslims because you want to quibble on that.

I know a friend who crossed the Mexican border with her fiance. She is a naturalized American citizen but she was born Brazilian. Her fiance in the car, was a Swedish immigrant who was returning ILLEGALLY to be with her. They didn't give him a second glance (his papers were forged) because he was white as a snowflake. THAT is profiling at it's most absurd. They missed the illegal immigrant while harassing the citizen due to profiling.

[eas]

I thought what Clark did: Looking at Chloe's Isis list and breaking into Davis' locker were totally founded and I'm glad he did that. I'm actually a little disappointed in Chloe for not being of more help to him. I fault her this time. Considering all of the meteor freaks they encountered all the way back from Season 1, you'd think she'd a least give it some thought or pay more attention to the participants in her roundtable discussion. Meteor freaks seem to have a knack for destruction, but she didn't want to do anything. Wasn't it less than a month ago that she was wrong about that other meteor freak girl that she let stay at her place?! Clark was on the money. He was right about the person being a meteor freak and about Davis. In this case I think the ends justified the means. I'm glad he can speed-read. I understood Davis' point of view. Obviously you'd be upset with someone breaking into your locker, but I'm still glad Clark did it. He's showing a lot of guts and he's being way proactive, despite a few ruffled feelings. I just think Chloe acted a little out of character. It's rare that she will not even look into a case or not help Clark at all. She's been wrong too much lately not to listen to Clark (who for the record is almost always right). I didn't agree with her attack on Clark at all (her referring to his abilities as "bonus features" comes to mind). If he needs to, I hope Clark goes over her head again to get the information he needs to make Metropolis a safer place. Your thoughts???

I agree to an extent. I saw the reasons why Chloe was sensitive to it (part of her program hinges on her participants being able to trust her) and I thought she was raising some valid concerns to Clark.

However, the part where I thought she crossed the line was when she referred to him as a guy "waving a pitchfork" to Davis. That was TOTALLY wrong. That's not Clark Kent and Chloe knows this. He was doing what he had to do to hunt down a killer and they had come across PLENTY of MFs over the years who were cuckoo for cocoa puffs. It was out of line for him to start with that list to narrow down and cancel out the most obvious suspects. Any law official would have done the same.

One of the things I don't even get about this whole MF story-line is that EVERY single MF has gone crazy on this show, haven't they? And even Chloe's initial fear when she found out she had powers was that she'd go crazy and die. Because that's what happened to ALL the ones they met from S1-S7. Then, Chloe gets powers and suddenly MFs can choose to be heroes, if they want? That's not what they told us before.

There's been a lot of retconning regarding MFs over the past season and this whole plot in this episode had to deal with that mess, imo. And that's why the whole tension between Clark and Chloe was odd... because the arguements didn't take into consideration the 8 6-7 years of fighting AGAINST the freaks. When Chloe pulled out her binder, I almost laughed... because Chloe never worried about them before... they were articles to her & people to put on her Wall of Weird... and now she was suddenly talking like she'd been fighting for their rights all along and she just couldn't take losing even one more, anymore.

Anyway... I felt that Clark was kind of jerk, from time to time, in this episode. But, as I posted before, I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I like for Clark to lose his temper and to become jerky... we need to see him actually show emotion every now and then, don't we?

[BadToad]

Both acts of stealing are wrong but stealing from your friend makes you a bad person.

So, now Clark is a bad person? Alrighty then...

As I said before, Chloe should never have anything to do with him again. We wouldn't want her to be tainted by associating with a bad person or anything.

And IMO, if we are adopting a blanket position without any variables, without any context, then I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you....stealing is bad. Period. Whether its from a friend, or whether its from a stranger. Its a bad thing.

So, I guess both Clark and Chloe are bad people then.

I get the impression Clarkbunny that you believe that anyone in law enforcement shouldn't question anyone, because after all, they may not be involved. I just don't agree, and I don't think you're going to solve a lot of crimes wrapping yourself up in the PC of it all. YMMV


He didn't even know Mary was a part of the group. Mary died before he had dinner with Chloe. He didn't ask for the list because of her death, he asked for the list because he wanted to find who was responsible for the destruction and killings at the Ace of Clubs; the crime he failed to stop.

Clark didn't go to Chloe until after he left the scene of the Ace of Clubs, after he got the cellphone, probably from J'onn Jones, and after he went to Jimmy and saw the footage. In that period of time, I think its very possible, given his obsession with the police scanner, and listening for crimes, that he may also have found out about Mary.

Certainly, if we assuming all sorts of levels of discrimination, and hardships to the Isis group, we are free to assume other things.

But hey, what do I know...I don't think Clark is a jerk, a bad friend, or a bad person. I'm obviously all screwed up :lol:


There's been a lot of retconning regarding MFs over the past season and this whole plot in this episode had to deal with that mess, imo.

Not to mention the huge retcon with the line from Clark about him not thinking about the meteor infected because he was too busy saving people from them. Clark has been the one character on this show who has been the MOST sympathetic to the meteor infected. There are many examples of him befriending one, or helping them out, or defending their rights (even standing up to Lana about it in Extinction). Now I'm supposed to believe its only Chloe who believes that meteor freaks are people too? Talk about a massive, and highly irritating, retcon. So, we diminish Clark so that Chloe can be the patron saint of the meteor infected? A position that she's never come close to holding previously?

Yeah, I'm not so much buying that.


I know a friend who crossed the Mexican border with her fiance. She is a naturalized American citizen but she was born Brazilian. Her fiance in the car, was a Swedish immigrant who was returning ILLEGALLY to be with her. They didn't give him a second glance (his papers were forged) because he was white as a snowflake. THAT is profiling at it's most absurd. They missed the illegal immigrant while harassing the citizen due to profiling.

Do you have any idea what the border guards on the USA/Mexican border are up against? How understaffed they are? The sort of insanity they deal with? Again, I'm sure they are very sorry that they can't be PC enough for everyone, but they're trying to do the best job they can with the very limited resources they have. And when thats the case, you need to play the odds, and go with the statistics. IMO

[eas]

And those responsible for terrorism like the London bombings or 9-11 are part of the Islamic culture. It doesn't make it right to suspect any and all Muslims because you want to quibble on that.

I know a friend who crossed the Mexican border with her fiance. She is a naturalized American citizen but she was born Brazilian. Her fiance in the car, was a Swedish immigrant who was returning ILLEGALLY to be with her. They didn't give him a second glance (his papers were forged) because he was white as a snowflake. THAT is profiling at it's most absurd. They missed the illegal immigrant while harassing the citizen due to profiling.

Racial profiling is a much debated topic and I don't think a person can automatically say that one is right over the other. Both sides have valid issues.

Taking the Muslim example... why does it happen? Because a group of people who called themselves Muslims were responsible for the 9/11 tragedy. So, tomorrow, if there's some threat some place, they automatically go through the list of Muslims in the area and check them first. It doesn't mean that they don't check other people -- they just go through the "usual suspects" first... because of a group of stupid "Muslims" who made all decent and law-abiding real Muslims have to deal with the fall out.

The fact is, though, the law officials have to start SOMEWHERE. And that's how racial profiling is born. It doesn't mean that they arrest every Muslim or even treat them like crap. It just means that they question them and go through the process of eliminating them from the list... for the innocent Muslim in question, it's a mino inconvience (uncomfortably so) and then it's done. If they're innocent, then they have nothing to worry about.

I'm not saying racial profiling is right - I'm saying that the justice system is all too human and there's an argument to be made that it's not un-ethical if it's for the greater good.

Same with this example... the police (and Clark) had to start SOMEWHERE... and there's a group of gifted kids who belong to a group that is known for going psycho with their powers & they were the last people to see her alive. It would be terrible investigative police work, imo, if the police didn't go through the roster to begin with. It's the same reason that spouses are the first suspects when their husband/wife goes missing or is murdered. It's the just the natural place to START an investigation.

[Kevin24]

I rewatched the scenes and Clark gets to the ace of clubs in time to hear the carnage that is going on up at the top. When he super jumps to the top he sees the destruction but the one responsible is already gone.

John Jones and Clark have a chat about what happened there and Clark makes a comment that the person who did the damage must be fast because by the time Clark got to the top of the building the person was gone and that took Clark literally less then a second to do. He had heard the rampage seconds before he jumped.

So, he and John Jones conclude that they have no leads until Clark eyes the cell phone and takes it to Jimmy to see what's on it. They watch it together and Jimmy makes a comment implying that it had to be someone extraordinary to do what was done at the ace of clubs. That's when Clark goes to Chloe to get a list of Krypto powered people to help narrow down the suspect and catch him before he kills again.

So, Clark did not automatically assume it was someone with powers when he first arrived but after the strong evidence suggesting that it was someone with powers is when he went to Chloe.

Also, Clarkbunny you completely ignore the reason Clark used the list in the first place. It completely changes everything if we take away the reason why Clark did what he did in the first place. We have to include everything not just what is convientent to your point of view.

I would completely agree with you if Clark did not have a good reason for doing what he did. He did though and he did go behind Chloe's back but he apologized for that.

[clarkbunny]

Which is exactly what occured. Clark went to Isis after watching the cellphone camera footage with Jimmy. He did not look at the carnage and immediately go "Oh, this must've been a krypto freak". But once he had seen what transpired, and we know he also researched previous killings, I think he made a logical, deductive leap, and one that he and Chloe have made MANY times before. Maybe it wasn't PC enough for some, but given the parameters of Clark's world, as we've witnessed for 7+ seasons, I don't think he leapt without a net.

Oh, and BTW, since I can't say this enough....one of Chloe's group was a dangerously unstable killer. But lets not quibble about details.

You are missing the point. I never said he was discriminating because he assumed the murderer must have been a krypto freak. I said he was discriminating because he assumed the group members were suspects just because they were kryptofreaks. There is a difference.

You say they were a good place to start 'cos Mary was killed however Clark was not there to investigate Mary's death. He was investigating the Ace of Clubs massacre and mysterious deaths around Metropolis that were krypto freak related. He had no reason to make the group members suspects over and above other krypto freaks that were out in Metropolis that he was unaware of. If J'onn had not directed Clark towards Davis the whole case would have been wrapped up on Shadowthief and Clark wouldn't have even looked into Davis - who let's not forget is ACTUALLY THE REAL MURDERER AFTER ALL that Clark is looking for.

[Bizarrolover]

The logical way to start an investigation is to study the more suspicious group. Unfortunately, meteor freaks have a broad history of violent crimes and the MO at the Ace of Clubs wasn't exactly normal (and here I'm borrowing Chloe's words in Whither). It's a pity that they didn't check the club's surveillance cameras (they filmed Maxima in Insticnt) or they would have seen who was the real killer.

[BadToad]

If J'onn had not directed Clark towards Davis the whole case would have been wrapped up on Shadowthief and Clark wouldn't have even looked into Davis - who let's not forget is ACTUALLY THE REAL MURDERER AFTER ALL that Clark is looking for.

It was my understanding of the episode that shadow boy was the one who murdered Mary. And probably that guy in the alley too (the one Jimmy looked at). He was just not responsible for ALL the murders that occurred, and he was not responsible for the Ace of Clubs. However, he was obviously a very dangerous, very unstable and homicidal person, and Chloe had apparently welcomed him into her little group with open arms. Had she done any background on him? Oh, wait, sorry, would that be discrimination too?

[clarkbunny]

Racial profiling is a much debated topic and I don't think a person can automatically say that one is right over the other. Both sides have valid issues.

Taking the Muslim example... why does it happen? Because a group of people who called themselves Muslims were responsible for the 9/11 tragedy. So, tomorrow, if there's some threat some place, they automatically go through the list of Muslims in the area and check them first. It doesn't mean that they don't check other people -- they just go through the "usual suspects" first... because of a group of stupid "Muslims" who made all decent and law-abiding real Muslims have to deal with the fall out.

The fact is, though, the law officials have to start SOMEWHERE. And that's how racial profiling is born. It doesn't mean that they arrest every Muslim or even treat them like crap. It just means that they question them and go through the process of eliminating them from the list... for the innocent Muslim in question, it's a mino inconvience (uncomfortably so) and then it's done. If they're innocent, then they have nothing to worry about.

I'm not saying racial profiling is right - I'm saying that the justice system is all too human and there's an argument to be made that it's not un-ethical if it's for the greater good.

Same with this example... the police (and Clark) had to start SOMEWHERE... and there's a group of gifted kids who belong to a group that is known for going psycho with their powers & they were the last people to see her alive. It would be terrible investigative police work, imo, if the police didn't go through the roster to begin with. It's the same reason that spouses are the first suspects when their husband/wife goes missing or is murdered. It's the just the natural place to START an investigation.

Yes but it doesn't take long for 'a few simple questions' every time you try to walk down the street or drive down the road' to start feeling like victimisation and discrimination. It's all very well to say that until it's you who is the subject of those questions when you have done nothing wrong.

The Isis group members were not in any way connected to the Ace of Clubs massacre as far as Clark knew so why were they a good place to start?

He was not investigating Mary's death.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----


It was my understanding of the episode that shadow boy was the one who murdered Mary. And probably that guy in the alley too (the one Jimmy looked at). He was just not responsible for ALL the murders that occurred, and he was not responsible for the Ace of Clubs. However, he was obviously a very dangerous, very unstable and homicidal person, and Chloe had apparently welcomed him into her little group with open arms. Had she done any background on him? Oh, wait, sorry, would that be discrimination too?

Everyone is getting caught up on Mary. Let's get one thing straight - CLARK WAS NOT INVESTIGATING MARY'S DEATH. He was looking into the Ace of Clubs massacre.

Did he find the culprit of the Ace of Clubs massacre? - NO

He found A murderer but not the one he was looking for. Davis is still out there committing crimes. If he hadn't gone after the first meteor freaks he could find and actually investigated the case properly then maybe the real murder would be behind bars.

Why would Chloe do background on her group members? Yes that would be discrimination. Do alcoholics anonymous do criminal profiling on their members before they can join? They are there to help people not judge them.

[BadToad]

Yes but it doesn't take long for 'a few simple questions' every time you try to walk down the street or drive down the road' to start feeling like victimisation and discrimination. It's all very well to say that until it's you who is the subject of those questions when you have done nothing wrong.

So, what is more important for people in law enforcement, who are trying to protect people and save lives....starting an investigation somewhere, based on the information you have available to you, and asking questions of those that have a higher statistical chance of being involved...or sitting around, twiddling your thumbs because you might hurt someones feelings?

And really, many a killer has been caught by profiling. To believe otherwise is naive.


The Isis group members were not in any way connected to the Ace of Clubs massacre as far as Clark knew so why were they a good place to start?

Maybe its as simple as proximity. If you are looking for a killer with extraordinary abilities, why would you not start at the closest place you know of where people like that may be?


He was not investigating Mary's death.

Whether Clark knew about Mary's death or not at that point is an unknown.

[eas]

Yes but it doesn't take long for 'a few simple questions' every time you try to walk down the street or drive down the road' to start feeling like victimisation and discrimination. It's all very well to say that until it's you who is the subject of those questions when you have done nothing wrong.

They were being questioned in relation to a specific investigation regarding a crime that could only have been committed by a "very special" person. It makes perfect sense that they're going to be questioned, because it's just a fact of life. If they're innocent, they'll have an alibi and that'll be the end of that.

And, guess what? I'm a Muslim. I have to usually factor in an extra half an hour for 'security check' when I go to the airport. My friends and I laugh about it. It's just a fact of life... I've got nothing to worry about so it's just a minor inconvenience.

Racial profling does not always work and I don't agree that it's a great approach when taken in a blanket sort of a way. However, within the context of a specific investigation for a specific crime (which this episode did show us) then - yes - it makes perfect sense to use it as a tool to narrow down the list of suspects.


The Isis group members were not in any way connected to the Ace of Clubs massacre as far as Clark knew so why were they a good place to start?

He was not investigating Mary's death.



For Mary's death, I was thinking more along the lines of Chloe going to the coroner's to get the report to prove to Clark that her kids didn't do it.

But, anyway, the reason it made sense for him to suspect the Isis kids was because of their special powers. No mere human killed the folks at the club and so he needed list of people who more than mere human. Chloe had that list.

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----


I would completely agree with you if Clark did not have a good reason for doing what he did. He did though and he did go behind Chloe's back but he apologized for that.

I think this is a good point. He had a good reason for the taking the list, but he went about it the wrong way. He went behind her back to steal it.

If he had time - or this was a true to life show - MM could have just had the list subpeona'd by a judge for this investigation. It would have taken day or so, but they could have done it.

At the end, they did it right - he apologize for what he did wrong.

[Kevin24]

Everyone is getting caught up on Mary. Let's get one thing straight - CLARK WAS NOT INVESTIGATING MARY'S DEATH. He was looking into the Ace of Clubs massacre.

Did he find the culprit of the Ace of Clubs massacre? - NO

He found A murderer but not the one he was looking for. Davis is still out there committing crimes. If he hadn't gone after the first meteor freaks he could find and actually investigated the case properly then maybe the real murder would be behind bars.

I agree that Clark was not investigating Mary's death but the incident at the Ace of Clubs. It's also true that he did not catch the person he was initially looking for.

At the end of the episode Clark is lead to believe he did catch the person he was looking for since the shadow killer confessed to all the murders.

I agree with everything you are saying ClarkBunny that it is a wrong thing to discriminate and "steal" confidential information and betray your best friends trust. I am with you on that but when it comes to saving lives then that is when I think what Clark did becomes necessary.

Although at the end we realize what Clark did really didn't do anything since they caught the killer because of the radio Clark has lol

[clarkbunny]

Here's where I stand on this:

Clark was investigating the Ace of clubs incident, the video showed that it was carried out by a meteor freak.

Clark knew that Chloe was running the Isis clinics for meteor freaks so he thought he could abuse her position of trust just because she is his friend to get his hands on some meteor freak names to begin his investigation.

The equivalent of the police investigating a crime commited by an asian person but having no leads heading off to the nearest mosque to ask the Imam for a list of all the mosque members. Not discrimination at all, hey they have to start somewhere :rolleyes:

I take issue with this because
1. Clark had no evidence that any of the Isis members were involved
2. He was just going on that they were meteor freaks - discriminating against them
3. Clark is NOT the police, he is essentially a vigilante acting on his own. He has no legitimate claim to get this information.

Lana was running the center before Chloe how comes he didn't run down there and demand names whenever he was investigating other meteor freak incidents?

Clark acted rashly and jumped to conclusions. He let his fervour to prevent more deaths cloud his good judgement and undermine his friendship with Chloe and discriminate against meteor freaks.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


I agree that Clark was not investigating Mary's death but the incident at the Ace of Clubs. It's also true that he did not catch the person he was initially looking for.

At the end of the episode Clark is lead to believe he did catch the person he was looking for since the shadow killer confessed to all the murders.

I agree with everything you are saying ClarkBunny that it is a wrong thing to discriminate and "steal" confidential information and betray your best friends trust. I am with you on that but when it comes to saving lives then that is when I think what Clark did becomes necessary.

But is that the kind of Superman that you want? Superman is meant to represent some kind of moral integrity and wholesome values. How can he represent that if he goes about getting information through theft and deception?

[smallvillerocks45]

How was the Isis group connected to the Ace of Clubs, the crime scene in question? He didn't even know Mary was a part of the group. Mary died before he had dinner with Chloe. He didn't ask for the list because of her death, he asked for the list because he wanted to find who was responsible for the destruction and killings at the Ace of Clubs; the crime he failed to stop.

The Isis group wasn't connected to the Ace of Clubs so him asking for the list is not a very specific group related to the specific crime.


I disagree. Clark may not have said Mary's name, but he was referring to a collective group of people who died the same way- bones crushed and internal bleeding - which likely included Mary.

The only reason Clark went to Chloe for names was because after watching the video he realized that the destruction was caused by someone with "special" abilities. Sure, it could have been anyone with abilities, but Clark had to start somewhere, and whether we like it or not, a guaranteed list of people with powers was in Chloe's possession.

What I am now confused about is why people are now calling Clark a bigot. I mean, in "Plastique" Lois gave Clark information about a person who killed a number of men all the way from Smallville to Metropolis, and that she suspected it was a "meteor freak on a rampage." I would think her comment is more overtly discriminatory than Clark's assumption based on video taped evidence. I don't think Clark is a bigot or was discriminating at all. The thought never even crossed my mind.

Yes, Clark's obsession caused him to push the boundaries and cross the line of friendship - it was not nice of him to go against Chloe's wishes, but he wasn't doing it out of spite, it was a hunch, and a semi-good one since the perpetrator is apparently a copycat.

[clarkbunny]

I didn't take issue with Clark's assumption that a meteor freak committed the Ace of Clubs massacre. I took issue with that he thought the Isis group's members were a good place to start when he had no evidence to implicate them whatsoever other than the fact that they were meteor freaks - discrimination.

Not to mention that he expected Chloe to give up this information to him freely - like she had made the group purposely to collect names for Clark whenever he needed to identify a meteor freak for a crime.

Chloe made the group to help people like herself and she placed herself in a position of trust with them. For Clark to not respect her position of trust and expect her to just freely give up her clients details was wrong on his part and I am glad he realised the error of his ways.

[Kevin24]

Here's where I stand on this:

Clark was investigating the Ace of clubs incident, the video showed that it was carried out by a meteor freak.

Clark knew that Chloe was running the Isis clinics for meteor freaks so he thought he could abuse her position of trust just because she is his friend to get his hands on some meteor freak names to begin his investigation.

The equivalent of the police investigating a crime commited by an asian person but having no leads heading off to the nearest mosque to ask the Imam for a list of all the mosque members. Not discrimination at all, hey they have to start somewhere :rolleyes:

I take issue with this because
1. Clark had no evidence that any of the Isis members were involved
2. He was just going on that they were meteor freaks - discriminating against them
3. Clark is NOT the police, he is essentially a vigilante acting on his own. He has no legitimate claim to get this information.

Lana was running the center before Chloe how comes he didn't run down there and demand names whenever he was investigating other meteor freak incidents?

Clark acted rashly and jumped to conclusions. He let his fervour to prevent more deaths cloud his good judgement and undermine his friendship with Chloe and discriminate against meteor freaks.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----



But is that the kind of Superman that you want? Superman is meant to represent some kind of moral integrity and wholesome values. How can he represent that if he goes about getting information through theft and deception?

It's true that he knew it was a krypto person but he didn't know who it was. He really had no evidence to really determine that it was someone from the ISIS foundation.

All he had was that it was a krpyto person and the only place he knew had a list of people with krypto powers was the ISIS foundation and Chloe.

It's true that after she denied him access to the files he could have searched the crime scenes for evidence and questioned the witnesses to find more to go on.

Everything you say is true and I agree with it and Clark did act rashly and he did let the threat of more deaths cloud his judgment.

I see your point and now I am seeing things a little differently when it comes to how Clark acted.

Clark wanted leads and he came to ISIS to get the whole Database of them but the only names he saw were the ones on the attendance list. So he went on that.

I don't think it was wrong of him to go there to get a list of possible suspects and narrow it down but he did go about getting the list the wrong way.

This reminds me of the fugitive because the man with the plastic arm did it and harrison ford went thru a list of people who fit that description to find a match and that in my opinion is what Clark was trying to do.

Match the power to what he saw in the video. Discrimination is something I think never crossed Clark's mind he just wanted to find who it was and find them soon.

I know that never crossed my mind until I came to the forums.

[clarkbunny]

^
I never thought about the idea he wanted to get his hands on the whole Isis database of meteor freaks - gosh that sounds even more scary :eek:

Yes I definitely got the impression that he wanted to match the meteor freaks abilities to what he saw at the Ace of clubs.

However the fact remains the Isis database is not a police database of criminals. It is a database of people who have come there for help. It should not be misused by a friend of the person running the centre to eliminate people from a criminal investigation.

It is a tempting idea but Clark's mind shouldn't even have gone there. Reminds me of the latest Batman where batman used everyone's mobile phone to search the whole network and essentially use it as a GPS to find the criminal. His aide - played by Morgan Freeman objected to it and only agreed for him to use it that one time to find the criminal and then that batman should promise to destroy the device as no one man should have access to that kind of power - even though it would allow him to pinpoint crime much more easily.

The ends do not justify the means.

I don't think Clark intentionally discriminated against the Isis members. He did it unintentionally by assuming it was OK to include them in his investigation without evidence due to the fact they were meteor freaks.

[Kevin24]

^
I never thought about the idea he wanted to get his hands on the whole Isis database of meteor freaks - gosh that sounds even more scary :eek:

Yes I definitely got the impression that he wanted to match the meteor freaks abilities to what he saw at the Ace of clubs.

However the fact remains the Isis database is not a police database of criminals. It is a database of people who have come there for help. It should not be misused by a friend of the person running the centre to eliminate people from a criminal investigation.

It is a tempting idea but Clark's mind shouldn't even have gone there. Reminds me of the latest Batman where batman used everyone's mobile phone to search the whole network and essentially use it as a GPS to find the criminal. His aide - played by Morgan Freeman objected to it and only agreed for him to use it that one time to find the criminal and then that batman should promise to destroy the device as no one man should have access to that kind of power - even though it would allow him to pinpoint crime much more easily.

The ends do not justify the means.

The Dark Knight was a great movie and I sided with Batman too but I agreed with Freeman as well!

Where we differ is that I think if it's for the greater good I'm ok with it but you are not.

I do see your point though that always crossing that line will eventually mess up your judgment like it did with Lex.

[clarkbunny]

Yeah I actually agreed with Batman and Morgan freeman too. But I only agreed with Batman 'cos he was looking for one specific person and he knew who that person was. His voice device was looking across the network for that one man's voice not listening to everyone's conversations.

Even if Chloe had given Clark the Isis database to search, Clark had no idea who the killer was. He would be looking through the details of innocent people - violating their rights to try and identify a killer. That to me is wrong.

[Kevin24]

Yeah I actually agreed with Batman and Morgan freeman too. But I only agreed with Batman 'cos he was looking for one specific person and he knew who that person was. His voice device was looking across the network for that one man's voice not listening to everyone's conversations.

Even if Chloe had given Clark the Isis database to search, Clark had no idea who the killer was. He would be looking through the details of innocent people - violating their rights to try and identify a killer. That to me is wrong.

Yeah that is the big difference between what happened there. Batman knew who he was looking for and Clark did not.

There was also a chance the killer was not even in the database either.

I see your point but I really don't see what else Clark could have done but wait around and wait for the murderer to strike again (which eventually happened). That is the only reason I was ok with it because it was to help save peoples lives.

[cma_454]

I think this is a good point. He had a good reason for the taking the list, but he went about it the wrong way. He went behind her back to steal it.

How did he, "steal," anything?

He read a list of names, in plain sight, and remembered what he read. He didn't break in and take info (as he and Chloe have in the past).

[stenochick]

Data protection laws
Patient-confidentiality

Doctors/therapists etc. can not just hand over their records to police or whoever asks for it without the patient's permission unless a warrant is obtained.

Chloe as the help centre leader had a duty to protect her patients' information. No matter what his good intentions were Clark is not the police and he did not have the right to access that information. In allowing Clark to get access to her client's details Chloe breached client/patient confidentiality - she had a duty to protect her clients info.

The ends do not justify the means. By setting up that centre the patients/clients were placing their trust in Chloe to handle their info sensitively and confidentially. They gave their details to Chloe under the understanding that it would be used solely for contacting them and dealing with their treatment. It is an abuse of the patients rights to then use that info for another purpose other than what was agreed by the patient in this case - to try and identify possible suspects in a criminal case.

Companies get fined megabucks by the government for this kind of data misuse. I hope Clark does not attempt this again it was a very poor show. Bad Clark in your bed!

This is a little off-topic, expecially since Chloe is practicing social work without a license (which is not illegal, it just means she can't accept third-party insurance for her fees), but since I practiced social work for a while, I thought I would chime in.

Licensed therapists and social workers have a kind of reverse client confridentiality when it comes to violating it. If a client tells a therapist in confidence that they are going to harm themselves or others, the therapist is bound by law to report their client to law enforcement. Also, if a therapist, social worker, school teacher, child care provider, etc, witnesses child abuse, neglect or domestic violence where children are involved, they are mandated by law to report. They are known as "mandated reporters" and it is part of their certification or licensing.

I don't know what the law is if there is merely suspicion by law enforcement. I don't know if she would have to maintain confidentiality or violate confidentiality.

[eas]

How did he, "steal," anything?

He read a list of names, in plain sight, and remembered what he read. He didn't break in and take info (as he and Chloe have in the past).

He stole the data. Whether he did it through memorization or not. What he did was essentially the same as photo-copying the list and taking it with him, because he did it without her permission. He knew where Chloe stood on the issue and, yet, he willfully gave the info to MM, anyway.


Here's where I stand on this:

Clark was investigating the Ace of clubs incident, the video showed that it was carried out by a meteor freak.

Clark knew that Chloe was running the Isis clinics for meteor freaks so he thought he could abuse her position of trust just because she is his friend to get his hands on some meteor freak names to begin his investigation.

The equivalent of the police investigating a crime commited by an asian person but having no leads heading off to the nearest mosque to ask the Imam for a list of all the mosque members. Not discrimination at all, hey they have to start somewhere :rolleyes:

I take issue with this because
1. Clark had no evidence that any of the Isis members were involved
2. He was just going on that they were meteor freaks - discriminating against them
3. Clark is NOT the police, he is essentially a vigilante acting on his own. He has no legitimate claim to get this information.

Lana was running the center before Chloe how comes he didn't run down there and demand names whenever he was investigating other meteor freak incidents?

Clark acted rashly and jumped to conclusions. He let his fervour to prevent more deaths cloud his good judgement and undermine his friendship with Chloe and discriminate against meteor freaks.


I don't think that it's a similar example, at all. In this case, it's like there was a huge fire that killed 30 people... police figure out that it was the work of an arsonist. It turns out that there are about 20 people who meet down the street every week for an "arsonists' anonymous" meeting. Those are 20 people who have the specific skill set and talents to pull off that kind of crime.

That's the same in this case.... it was a specific SORT of crime & only a MF would have been able to pull it off.

It's not racial profiling if it's regarding a certain type of talent and not a person's race, gender, sexual orientation, or religious affiliation. Profiling and discrimination exists when a person only looks at those things, regardless of whether or not it even makes sense that they are viable suspects.

In this case, Chloe's group were the best leads that they had.

I stand by my feeling that the episode handled this is in a very good way. Clark believed that his action was justified at the end of the episode (and I agree with him) but he also realized that the WAY he went about it was wrong. He apologized for what he thought was wrong - the fact that he went behind Chloe's back. But, he didn't apologize for thinking that a MFs were responsible for the killings and that it was OK to question them. He believed that he was ethically correct and he didn't back down.

I loved that. And, yes, I think that ALL Supermans would have done the same thing. This is something that the Justice League deals with all the time: At what point does using the powers to stop crime end up being an abuse of the justice system? Are they above the law? Is it OK?

These are the issues that make comic books so much fun to read and they should be exploring topics that are ambiguous and not an easy black/white issue.

In this case, I love that "SV" used this plot as a parallel to the sorts of things that happen in the real world. I thought that this was handled much better than when they dealt with illegal immigration in "Subterranean".

[RedKRules]

Please don´t shoot me, but as much as I loved Clark acting heroic on this episode, I thought, he was angry and bitter all the time .... I didn´t like it .... and he stole the evidences .... so he crossed the line IMO!!

[stenochick]

Yes but it doesn't take long for 'a few simple questions' every time you try to walk down the street or drive down the road' to start feeling like victimisation and discrimination. It's all very well to say that until it's you who is the subject of those questions when you have done nothing wrong.

The Isis group members were not in any way connected to the Ace of Clubs massacre as far as Clark knew so why were they a good place to start?

He was not investigating Mary's death.

He came to Chloe to ask her questions and get her input on possible suspects. To his dismay, she flat-out refused. He then grabbed the only info he could, the small group sign-in sheet. He even told her later that he took the names because she was "so defensive" about talking with him.

[clarkbunny]

He came to Chloe to ask her questions and get her input on possible suspects. To his dismay, she flat-out refused. He then grabbed the only info he could, the small group sign-in sheet. He even told her later that he took the names because she was "so defensive" about talking with him.

Clark went to the Isis foundation to get names of possible suspects, he didn't go there for her input. She refused for good reason she was running a help center for the meteor infected not an extension of the police station for recording meteor freak criminals. The Isis center is there to help people it is not Chloe's own personal wall of wierd that Clark can search to find criminals. IMO Chloe was rightfully defensive and Clark was down right rude, he overstepped the mark.

Clark is not a policeman, until he becomes superman he is just a vigilante working on his own as such he is not owed access to information from any company/charity or government agency and he has no legitimate claim to this information. He did not have any evidence to connect the Isis group members to the attack at the Ace of Clubs.
Neither did he know the person he was looking for.

The reason he went to Isis was because he knew the centre looked after the meteor infected AND he knew that his friend Chloe worked there. He was counting on the fact that Chloe is his friend and thought that she would just hand over the names of her clients. He was forgetting that Chloe also has a duty to protect the identities of her patients. It is not just about him, what he was asking was a conflict of interests for Chloe.

Whether he had a good reason or not to want the information. The fact remains that he had no evidence that those at the centre were involved in the club incident. Investing time in searching there could well have turned out to be fruitless if Shadowthief hadn't decided to be a copycat killer. Just because the info was there doesn't mean that Clark should use it. To use the list was to unfairly target the group members over and above meteor infected people who had not volunteered their names to the Isis foundation.

[Tacitus]

Please don´t shoot me, but as much as I loved Clark acting heroic on this episode, I thought, he was angry and bitter all the time .... I didn´t like it .... and he stole the evidences .... so he crossed the line IMO!!

Oh please, lets not talk about stealing evidence :D

[BadToad]

Clark is not a policeman, until he becomes superman he is just a vigilante

Even after Clark becomes Superman, he's technically a vigilante. If thats a big problem for you, then maybe comic book superheroes aren't so much your thing.


Clark went to the Isis foundation to get names of possible suspects, he didn't go there for her input.

Maybe he was looking for both, but since Chloe got all defensive, he wasn't going to be getting any useful input from her.


Neither did he know the person he was looking for.

Of course not. So, are you insinuating that no one, not Clark, not law enforcement, can look for suspects unless they know specially the person they are looking for? I don't think a lot of crimes are going to be solved that way, and probably very few murderers caught. Not unless they are kind enough to turn themselves, or at least get caught on camera. Part of investigating a crime is looking for likely suspects. The way you look for likely suspects is to examine evidence, start asking questions, etc. And yes, if there is something unique about the crime that would tie it into a certain group of people, then people who belong in that group would be where you would start. Thats completely logical.

So, Clark has evidence of a crime committed by someone with extraordinary abilities, and he's supposed to do....what, nothing? Because really, looking into any suspects at all might be *GASP* discrimination, or *GASP* profiling. So, much better for Clark, and law enforcement to do nothing at all. We wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings while we're trying to prevent further gruesome murders, would we?


He was forgetting that Chloe also has a duty to protect the identities of her patients.

Chloe is not a doctor, or a certified counseler, or a social worker. She doesn't have "patients". She isn't qualified, nor licensed, for that sort of responsibility. She has people that she openly advertises for, who come in, sit around, and talk. Thats it!


Investing time in searching there could well have turned out to be fruitless if Shadowthief hadn't decided to be a copycat killer.

Every investigative lead has the potential to be fruitless. Would you prefer people never try? Never investigate? Can you imagine anyone attempting to stop crime just shrugging their shoulders and saying "Well, we might be wrong about this, so we better not even seek out information or ask questions"? Because really, what a surreal, scary world that would be, IMO :lol:


Just because the info was there doesn't mean that Clark should use it.

Yeah, best to ignore potential leads. After all, you might be wrong. The only leads one can follow up on are when someone basically commits the crime right in front of your eyes?


To use the list was to unfairly target the group members over and above meteor infected people who had not volunteered their names to the Isis foundation.

To use the list was to start somewhere, with the information you were able to obtain, and if that didn't pan out, then you come up with something else. Thats how investigating works.

[clarkbunny]

So you think that Clark should have turned up at the Isis foundation and Chloe should have just handed him everything she knew about these people she was trying to help, people who trusted her to keep their IDs safe when Clark had nothing to tie them to club incident?

What does that make Chloe?

I dread to think what the world would be like if you ran it. I am sure you would agree that everyone's DNA should be collected and held by the government so that people could be easily identified in any crimes with DNA evidence. I mean if people don't have anything to hide it shouldn't be a problem right. Believe in human rights much?

[Clana4Life]

Clarkbunny, maybe it would be different in the majority of the meteor-infected and by majority I mean 99% were not crazy or murderers. But SV has shown us for some 7+ years now that pretty much every meteor freak is a villain. So, they would not get the benefit of the doubt when a murder occurs that only someone with "special powers" can commit. I could see if we were talking about an innocent group of people, but they have made a name for themselves and it's not a good name. In the real world, they would be the first suspects. It's admirable for Chloe to want to help them - though she did not ever consider doing this until she found out she was a meteor freak, but it was her duty to at least investigate these people given their history. It's not a matter of say 25% of meteor freaks who commit crimes - SV has shown us that the majority do, so why wouldn't Clark start his investigation there? In my opinion Clark didn't cross the line and even if we say that he did, Chloe's behavior caused him to have to do so in order to potentially save lives. The real concern is that Chloe didn't even consider that she could have a murderer in her midst (the truth is that she did). That's naive and alarming. She trusts too easily and she is not using the best judgment. It's very un-Chloe like, but I guess they are changing her character and I don't think it has anything to do with Brainiac.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Someone mentioned Lana. If he had asked Lana, I think she would have handed the list over and allowed him to see the entire database.

[BadToad]

So you think that Clark should have turned up at the Isis foundation and Chloe should have just handed him everything she knew about these people she was trying to help, people who trusted her to keep their IDs safe when Clark had nothing to tie them to club incident?

No, I believe Chloe should've considered the possibility, and offered to look into the situation herself. I believe if she had done so, Clark would've taken a step back.


What does that make Chloe?

Naive? Unqualified? Someone who probably need to think this whole thing out a bit better? Someone who might want to consider some professional credentials before she believes she's in a position to counsel people with a long track record of unstable, and dangerous behavior?


I dread to think what the world would be like if you ran it.

So, that makes us even :)


I am sure you would agree that everyone's DNA should be collected and held by the government so that people could be easily identified in any crimes with DNA evidence. I mean if people don't have anything to hide it shouldn't be a problem right. Believe in human rights much?

I actually believe in human rights quite a bit. And no, I don't believe everyones DNA should be collected. But the world is not some Utopian ideal, and I think ignoring sense and reality is extremely dangerous. And I do believe that people should be allowed to investigate brutal murders, and ask people questions in the course of investigation of those murders, and I think thats what I've been saying all along. Even if I agreed that the group at Isis couldn't be looked at in connection to the murders at the Ace of Clubs, I think Mary's murder right after leaving the group would negate that. I do not believe being asked questions by the police in the course of a murder investigation is a violation of anyones civil, or human, rights, as long as all the police are doing is asking questions. JMHO

[stenochick]

Prior to 9-11, during the Clinton Administration, Al Gore, a super-smart guy, came up with an algorithm (let's call it the "Al-Gore-ithm", lol) that identified likely terrorists so that they could recieve further scrutiny at airports. On 9-11 it picked out 11 of the 19 hijkackers for special scrutiny as possible terrorists. It used a variety of characteristics like purchasing one-way first-class tickets with cash, not just because they were of a certain race or religion.

I look at the meteor-infected like those the Al-Gore-ithm profiles. These are people that fit a certian profile and should be questioned. It's not like a dragnet that pulls in every person of certain race or religion but those that fit a profile with a lot of things on it and that is very narrow.

I'm not saying it's right, just that I can see why Clark would want that information and why law enforcement would want it. Never waive your Miranda rights and always request a lawyer before you let the police question you, no matter how innocent you are.

[clarkbunny]

I am going on what we have been shown in the program though. Clark was not investigating Mary's murder, if he was it would be a different case. He would have cause to want to speak to the Isis group. Although how Chloe would introduce him I don't know as he isn't the police. The police would need to contract the group members and not Clark.

If I went to some kind of informal meeting and someone from the group was killed. I would want to know why some random person that wasn't the police had turned up on my doorstep to ask me questions.

[Guidron]

I think Clark was simply exploring a very plausible angle to the murders. Kryptonite infected people have a history of committing violent crimes. Doesn't mean that all of them do and/or will, but they do fit a profile.

I'm not saying that Clark really went about it the right way. He WAS kinda rude, but I imagine it was a reaction to Chloe being so defensive. That combined with the lack of sleep due to keeping late nights as the city hero.

[clarkbunny]

The people at Isis signed up to get help not so they could have their details passed onto the police any time a meteor freak related crime was committed.

If word gets round that their names will be passed to the police by the Isis foundation they will stop coming and who could blame them?

If Chloe gave him the list of names this time then what is to stop Clark coming to Chloe EVERY time a meteor related crime is committed? Then the help center becomes less of a help center and more of an informant hub for Clark and the police to keep tabs on meteor freaks. All of the attention will be on those people who signed up to the center and not on the meteor freaks at large who haven't signed up.

I can't understand why people are having a problem with Chloe's reaction to Clark's request. What he had suggested was essentially a witch hunt - back in the olden days when anything bad happened the towns folk would light up their torches, pick up their pitch forks and march over to the suspected witches' houses to accuse them. Now if we just swap witches for Isis center meteor freaks.........

[BadToad]

If I went to some kind of informal meeting and someone from the group was killed. I would want to know why some random person that wasn't the police had turned up on my doorstep to ask me questions.

Some random person wasn't showing up at their door. A police officer was. And that was after Mary's murder had been discovered, not before.


If word gets round that their names will be passed to the police by the Isis foundation they will stop coming and who could blame them?

Of course, if word got around that one of the members of their meetings was actually a psycho killer, and he'd been sitting there with them the whole time while they opened up about themselves, and he actually murdered one of them....well, I think that might cause them to stop coming as well.


What he had suggested was essentially a witch hunt - back in the olden days when anything bad happened the towns folk would light up their torches, pick up their pitch forks and march over to the suspected witches' houses to accuse them. Now if we just swap witches for Isis center meteor freaks.........

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the witches weren't asked a few questions by a member of the village armed forces, and I'm pretty sure the witches didn't have the right to refuse to answer questions, and didn't have the right to call an attorney before responding to any questions. I think its a very dramatic example, but not really relevant to what we've seen on SV, or this particular situation, or what the members of the group experianced, IMO

[Kevin24]

Debating is so much fun. Am I the only one who is having fun on this thread?

I do see Clarkbunny's point but I have to side with Clark only because of the fact that it was the only way to get leads to stop murders from happening. I don't think John Jones made them feel at all in danger during his questioning. He probably just wanted to know where they were at the time of the incident and if they had an alibi.

I don't think that is so bad.

[svtwamedfan05]

IMO he wasn't a jerk, he was doing his job. You know being Superman and tracking down the murderer to stop them from killing any more people. Why on Earth is people labeling him a jerk when that's what he was suppose to be doing in the first place is behind me. If anybody was out of character it would be Chloe. This was the beginning of Chloe turning to the darkside.

[SnowBird]

Debating is so much fun. Am I the only one who is having fun on this thread?

It has been an interesting debate. Now the discrimination card has been played just because Clark memorized some meteor infected names and gave them to a police detective. I believe if Chloe would have helped Clark investigate, those names would never have left Isis.

I know this doesn't really have anything to do with Clark and Chloe but it may put some perspective about discrimination and racism which has already been brought up.

In 1838-39 sixteen thousand Cherokee men, women and children were rounded up from their homes in S.E. United States and marched 12 hundred miles in winter weather to N.E. Oklahoma. 4 thousand Cherokees died on the way. I did have family in the forced removal the Cherokees have named "The Trail of Tears." The reason the Cherokee land was taken was because they discovered gold on their land...During World War II, American Japanese families were put in camps in the U.S. because of our involvement with Japan in the war. My son's best friend's father was in one of those camps. Both of these crimes against humanity were performed by the U.S. government. Thank goodness there is discrimination laws now in effect.

Now that I have described what major discrimination is, back to the discrimination of the meteor infected. Clark was looking for one or more murderers. If you were living in the city of Metropolis and there were maniacs killing citizens, would you rather have Clark trying to solve the crimes in any way possible or go back to the Daily Planet and park himself in his chair and do nothing? I for one, would want him to do what he could by getting that attendance list any way possible and get the police involved. I would not care if Chloe got her feelings hurt or if the people on that list were questioned by the police. I would want the murderers found so I could feel reasonably safe in my home and on the streets.

We can split hairs on discrimination and the rights of the meteor infected. What Clark did was heroic and he is NOT a Jerk. How he got the list was questionable in Clark's eyes so he apologized to Chloe. In my eyes he did what was needed to save lives and this outweighs everything including so called discrimination by other posters and hurt feelings, IMO.

[smallvillerocks45]

Debating is so much fun. Am I the only one who is having fun on this thread?

I do see Clarkbunny's point but I have to side with Clark only because of the fact that it was the only way to get leads to stop murders from happening. I don't think John Jones made them feel at all in danger during his questioning. He probably just wanted to know where they were at the time of the incident and if they had an alibi.

I don't think that is so bad.

I was thinking the same thing! I am having a great time debating the subject. I still don't think Clark was a jerk, but I do think that everyone who has participated in the thread have made really interesting points.

[Iluvgreen]

I thought what Clark did: Looking at Chloe's Isis list and breaking into Davis' locker were totally founded and I'm glad he did that. I'm actually a little disappointed in Chloe for not being of more help to him. I fault her this time. Considering all of the meteor freaks they encountered all the way back from Season 1, you'd think she'd a least give it some thought or pay more attention to the participants in her roundtable discussion. Meteor freaks seem to have a knack for destruction, but she didn't want to do anything. Wasn't it less than a month ago that she was wrong about that other meteor freak girl that she let stay at her place?! Clark was on the money. He was right about the person being a meteor freak and about Davis. In this case I think the ends justified the means. I'm glad he can speed-read. I understood Davis' point of view. Obviously you'd be upset with someone breaking into your locker, but I'm still glad Clark did it. He's showing a lot of guts and he's being way proactive, despite a few ruffled feelings. I just think Chloe acted a little out of character. It's rare that she will not even look into a case or not help Clark at all. She's been wrong too much lately not to listen to Clark (who for the record is almost always right). I didn't agree with her attack on Clark at all (her referring to his abilities as "bonus features" comes to mind). If he needs to, I hope Clark goes over her head again to get the information he needs to make Metropolis a safer place. Your thoughts???

dude! she was being a trustworthy mentor. it was so darn mean of him to speed read her list and hand it to the police.

though i must say. it was awsome how he can speed read. :D

[baltazor]

Clark was a little over focused on this one. He did cross some lines, but it was necessary for him to find out where are the boundaries he must not cross in the future...

[Hoshi_Reed]

Racial profiling is a much debated topic and I don't think a person can automatically say that one is right over the other. Both sides have valid issues.

EXACTLY. My whole POINT was that people who saw Clark as being a jerk and sided with Chloe are doing so NOT because they are Chloe fans but because of their personal views on this issue in real life.

I was answering snowbird: This isn't a matter of who was right or wrong. It has become Chloe verses Clark. Those who like Chloe will be on her side. Those who like Clark will be on his side. I don't think there is going to be an unbiased opinion for the most part.

I went down this path because I was stating that it is our own personal bias on the issue of what we personally see as right and wrong, and not our character preference, that is clouding our posts. The bias exists but not because of characters.

I said in my episode review that they did cover both sides and Clark and Chloe both gave ground to the other; I was glad that the episode opened us to such a discussion in the first place.



The logical way to start an investigation is to study the more suspicious group. Unfortunately, meteor freaks have a broad history of violent crimes and the MO at the Ace of Clubs wasn't exactly normal (and here I'm borrowing Chloe's words in Whither). It's a pity that they didn't check the club's surveillance cameras (they filmed Maxima in Insticnt) or they would have seen who was the real killer.

The most logical step, in a Liberal's mind, is to start with the most suspicious group, not a group. So, logically, he should have gone for a list of Belle Reeve/33.1 MF's who were released or escaped, since they had a record/reason for violence. He went after MF's who shared a trait but not the suspicion. They had not done anything wrong, he only wanted the list because they were a part of a specific group. He had no reason/clue to suspect them specifically.


And really, many a killer has been caught by profiling. To believe otherwise is naive.
Real profiling is more than one or two traits, it is an in-depth list of multiple traits and likely personalities and habits of an Un-Sub.


I don't think that it's a similar example, at all. In this case, it's like there was a huge fire that killed 30 people... police figure out that it was the work of an arsonist. It turns out that there are about 20 people who meet down the street every week for an "arsonists' anonymous" meeting. Those are 20 people who have the specific skill set and talents to pull off that kind of crime.

That's the same in this case.... it was a specific SORT of crime & only a MF would have been able to pull it off.
Not really. It would be like going into a fire safety/training meeting. Those members would have the skills yes, but you have no idea if they have malicious intent/thoughts. It would have been better if he went after Belle Reve or 33.1 MF's since they would have skills/record/motive.


I stand by my feeling that the episode handled this is in a very good way. Clark believed that his action was justified at the end of the episode (and I agree with him) but he also realized that the WAY he went about it was wrong. He apologized for what he thought was wrong - the fact that he went behind Chloe's back. But, he didn't apologize for thinking that a MFs were responsible for the killings and that it was OK to question them. He believed that he was ethically correct and he didn't back down.
I too feel that the episode handled it well. I'm especially fond of the fact it sparked the discussion in the first place. I also get that Superman is a very conservative poster child (vigilante justice because they are guilty, after all they ARE criminals) and would hold those beliefs even though I don't personally agree with them.


In this case, I love that "SV" used this plot as a parallel to the sorts of things that happen in the real world. I thought that this was handled much better than when they dealt with illegal immigration in "Subterranean".
Oh DEFINITELY. Much better than the immigration issue. I personally love TV that hits hot topic issues.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


I was thinking the same thing! I am having a great time debating the subject. I still don't think Clark was a jerk, but I do think that everyone who has participated in the thread have made really interesting points.

So am I. I think that was the whole point of the episode to begin with. If it was not their intentions, I will be totally surprised.

[clarkbunny]

LOL yes the debating has certainly been interesting :D

Badtoad when I said some random person turning up at the meteor freaks' doors I was referring to what would have happened if Clark hadn't given the list to J'onn. He was planning to check into the people on the list himself.

I find it funny how a lot of people are saying Chloe's defensiveness is some kind of sign of Brainiac taking over :rotfl:
Rewatch the scene, I really don't see how she would have reacted any other way. Clark turns up being all obnoxious and belittling the work that she is doing at the Isis foundation. Then he doesn't ask her if she has any information to help his search - he sees the list on the table and goes right ahead and starts reading it. If you want help you don't just walk in somewhere with an attitude and take the information you want. Clark was rude and insensitive and he showed contempt for the work Chloe was doing and lack of respect or appreciation for her position of trust or the position he was putting Chloe in by asking for the info.

I am all for criminals being caught but not at the expense of basic human rights and privacy laws. You can't look the other way when people's rights are being infringed just because it achieves a result that you want. Clark is not superman and he is not the police. Even the police have to go through the right channels and procedure if they want information or to question people why should this not apply to Clark, he is not above the law.

J'onn Jones and the police had not approached the Isis foundation - did they not know about it or was it not necessary for their investigation? J'onn with his ACTUAL INVESTIGATION had identified Davis as a possible suspect. Clark needs to learn to investigate the crime at hand not take drastic short cuts. Thanks to him the Ace of Clubs killer is still at large, yeah well done Clark - nice one!

[SnowBird]

The most logical step, in a Liberal's mind, is to start with the most suspicious group, not a group. So, logically, he should have gone for a list of Belle Reeve/33.1 MF's who were released or escaped, since they had a record/reason for violence.

Clark is in trouble with some people here because he took a list from a friend. How would it look if Clark broke in Belle Reeve and took a list of escaped or released group of people? Maybe if he took Chloe with him, it would have been okay. I know it was a low blow to Chloe but she has been Clark's partner so many times and it seems like there is no problem with attaining records any way possible as long as she is with him.

[BadToad]

Badtoad when I said some random person turning up at the meteor freaks' doors I was referring to what would have happened if Clark hadn't given the list to J'onn. He was planning to check into the people on the list himself.

Actually, we don't know that at all. If thats what Clark's plan was, then why hand the list over to J'onn, who is a Metropolis police officer, at all?


J'onn Jones and the police had not approached the Isis foundation - did they not know about it or was it not necessary for their investigation? J'onn with his ACTUAL INVESTIGATION had identified Davis as a possible suspect. Clark needs to learn to investigate the crime at hand not take drastic short cuts. Thanks to him the Ace of Clubs killer is still at large, yeah well done Clark - nice one!

Wait a second...now you're blaming Clark for Davis not being a suspect? Oh, come on now. I get that you have a hate-on for Clark, but this seems extreme. Clark was looking into Davis as a suspect on J'onn's suggestion, which PROVES that he hadn't closed his mind to the possiblity of the crimes being committed by someone other then a meteor infected person, and Clark did follow up investigation on Davis. However, Clark was an eye witness to Davis being attacked by a person who could turn himself in a shadow creature, and seemed to possess extraordinary strength. Clark was able to subdue that person until they were apprehended, and then that person confessed to all the crimes. There is no reason at all that Clark should believe that the real Ace of Clubs killer is still out there.


Maybe if he took Chloe with him, it would have been okay. I know it was a low blow to Chloe but she has been Clark's partner so many times and it seems like there is no problem with attaining records any way possible as long as she is with him.

Yeah, funny how that works, right? I'm not sure why anyone thinks that hacking into private records is any less a violation of privacy rights on a major scale then what Clark did in this episode. But somehow, Chloe was never referred to as a jerk or a bigot, or discriminating. And even though Clark was more often then not the person that was most empathetic to meteor infected people, I don't seem to recall him getting many pats on the back for it.

[HeartChakraBabe]

They were both right and they were both wrong, IMO. Clark was wrong to filch her list without her knowledge, and Chloe ought to have given him a little more rope (even though I feel she had every right to protect her clients --they trusted her, after all), because MFs do tend to go off the deep end. Basically, you shouldn't throw out all the apples because a few are bad, but the fact remains that you've got to root through and see if there are any more rotten ones.

[SnowBird]

Yeah, funny how that works, right? I'm not sure why anyone thinks that hacking into private records is any less a violation of privacy rights on a major scale then what Clark did in this episode. But somehow, Chloe was never referred to as a jerk or a bigot, or discriminating. And even though Clark was more often then not the person that was most empathetic to meteor infected people, I don't seem to recall him getting many pats on the back for it.

So true...I do remember when a boy shot a meteor infected fish boy when he was trying to kill Lana in the pool. Clark defended the meteor infected people as a whole and said they didn't ask to be that way so don't blame all of them for what some do. Lana and Chloe both shot Clark down because at that time they didn't know of even one that didn't go off the deep end. I guess Chloe has changed her mind since she found out she is meteor infected.

[BadToad]

They were both right and they were both wrong, IMO. Clark was wrong to filch her list without her knowledge, and Chloe ought to have given him a little more rope (even though I feel she had every right to protect her clients --they trusted her, after all), because MFs do tend to go off the deep end, and despite the fact that you shouldn't throw out all the apples because a few are bad the fact remains that you've got to root through and see if there are any more rotten ones.

And I can totally respect this way of looking at things. As I said way back in this thread, I did think Clark should apologize, and I do think he could've gone about things with Chloe in a better way. But I maintain that Clark started from a logical and understandable place, and the horrendousness of his "crime" has been way overstated, IMO.

[Kevin24]

A lot of people in this thread are missing the big picture. He was trying to save LIVES! LIVES! One of the most precious things we have! OUR LIFE!

When it comes to saving lives wouldn't you as a person in the universe of smallville want the police to follow every possible lead they have to find the serial killer?

Would you rather the cops let the killer keep killing until the killer leaves enough clues so that he could be identified and then apprehended? Even though this whole time they had a list they could use to catch the killer sooner and save those people who would have been murdered if they didn't?

Isn't that a bit selfish? That you think keeping your information private is more important then a human life?

So you rather someone potentially die then have police question you to help them find the killer?

If a cop came with a warrant you are going to hand the list over anyway. Why not give it to the most powerful and most honorable and trustworthy person you know have the list and catch the killer?

I sure did ask a lot of questions:lol:

[stenochick]

I find it funny how a lot of people are saying Chloe's defensiveness is some kind of sign of Brainiac taking over :rotfl:


Clarkbunny, whatever our disagreements on the profiling issue, this is one point where you and I wholeheartedly agree. Go to any thread on this forum and you will see posts stating that Brainiac has taken over Chloe's personality with proof cited such as: she confessed her love for Jimmy, she beat a lie detecter, she was defensive with Clark, basically anything seemingly OOC (out of Chlark). Blame it on bad writing, perhaps, but it's not Brainiac. His time will come soon enough.

[clarkbunny]

When I think about Clark and Chloe's file stealing or hacking I can't think of an occasion where they have stolen a group of people's records so they can check into something.

It has always been a specific person's record and usually the person they were trying to help so not really an invasion of privacy as in this case.

They stole Chloe's death certificate, Chloe's file from 33.1, Chloe's mum's file from Belle Reve, they've stolen security surveilance tapes, Clark stole a doctor's laptop I can't remember the reason for that. They've stolen files from Lex but they were on projects rather than actual people's information. I believe this is the first time people's data has been stolen but i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong ;)

My stand point on the issue has nothing to do with liking either of them it's just the principle of it. Just because a crime has been committed doesn't absolve the investigators from having to adhere to privacy laws, human rights and standard procedure. If police suspected drug dealers to be in a house they couldn't just break the door down and find the drugs they would still need a warrant. Clark didn't even ask to take the list of names he just picked it up and read it, when Chloe took it from him he committed what he'd seen to memory and reproduced the list later.

My issue here is that first that Clark took the list and read it without permission.
Second Clark did not show any respect for the work Chloe was trying to do - he came into the Isis centre with an attitude.
Third he did not consider that Chloe was in a position of trust with her group and that asking her to just give him their names represented a conflict of interest for her - she had a duty to protect their IDs. Chloe could not give out any details of her group unless he brought specific evidence to indicate that one of them may have been involved.
To include them in the investigation just because they were meteor infected was not sufficient reason.

To me Chloe was in the right and Clark was in the wrong there is no middle ground. And no not because I love Chloe :lol: That's how the program came across to me. The whole point of it seemed to be to show Clark becoming so consumed with his goal of rounding up all of Metropolis' criminals that he lost sight of moral boundaries, ethics and the boundaries of his friendship with Chloe.

The good thing is that at the end of the show they had Clark realising he had over stepped the mark and apologising for his actions. So he has learned from this and will not make the same mistakes in future. So I am happy with that just slightly confused on how people could say Clark was in the right when he clearly wasn't - but I guess that's the whole point of debate :p

My analogy of wht happened would be if you worked in a video shop and your friend wanted to contact their husband who had run off and left them. She knew he was still in the area just not where and knew that he used your shop. It would be like her asking you to give her her husband's address from his customer record - conflict of interest. You want to help your friend but you have a duty to protect your customer's privacy. So you cannot give them the info end of story.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


Clarkbunny, whatever our disagreements on the profiling issue, this is one point where you and I wholeheartedly agree. Go to any thread on this forum and you will see posts stating that Brainiac has taken over Chloe's personality with proof cited such as: she confessed her love for Jimmy, she beat a lie detecter, she was defensive with Clark, basically anything seemingly OOC (out of Chlark). Blame it on bad writing, perhaps, but it's not Brainiac. His time will come soon enough.

LOL - definitely agreed on that one. Chloe is still Chloe just with enhanced brain power.
I am sure we will all know if and when Brainiac takes over.
Maybe I can blame Clark's odd behaviour on that he's not really Clark, it's Bizarro ha ha ha!

[SnowBird]

If a cop came with a warrant you are going to hand the list over anyway. Why not give it to the most powerful and most honorable and trustworthy person you know have the list and catch the killer?

You did touch on something that I have been thinking of...Clark gave the list to police detective, John Jones and asked if he could investigate those names and find out if any of them were the killer. We know MM will be discreet and not tell the police about Isis. Because of Clark's action he is now a bad friend, etc which I'm not going to specifically list because it has been brought up so many times my eyes are getting bloodshot from reading it over and over and over.

Let's look at the alternative method Clark could have taken to catch a killer...He first goes to the police department and not to detective John Jones and told them that there is a place called Isis where they hold meetings for meteor infected kids. One of their own was murdered after their meeting.

The police will probably get a search warrant and get the attendance list and all the names and records of the meteor infected including the notebook of names she showed Clark. Chloe would have to answer why she doesn't have a license to run the Isis foundation and be a councilor. Lana owns Isis so she will probably be charged along with Chloe and be brought into court. I'm not up on the law but if they find the shadow boy killer they may be subject in aiding the killer because he was a member of her group and also she didn't report the girl had been murdered leaving Isis. Homeland security will probably also be brought in again for Chloe's hacking of government computers. They could find a few more things to charge Chloe with I haven't thought about. The Isis will be closed probably never to open again. Chloe and Lana will take revenge for Clark telling the police and reveal that Clark is an alien from Krypton.

Clark has done his civic duty required by law to tell what he knows about a killing. Of course, he has probably lost some friends but he hasn't broken any law and he didn't take the list.

You now have two different methods to choose from:

1) Clark takes the list and gives it to detective John Jones to investigate.
2) Clark reports to the police that a girl coming from a meeting at Isis was killed.

I choose No. 1. Yes, Clark took the list without permission but the alternative method of catching a killer is much worse.

[eas]

EXACTLY. My whole POINT was that people who saw Clark as being a jerk and sided with Chloe are doing so NOT because they are Chloe fans but because of their personal views on this issue in real life.

I was answering snowbird: This isn't a matter of who was right or wrong. It has become Chloe verses Clark. Those who like Chloe will be on her side. Those who like Clark will be on his side. I don't think there is going to be an unbiased opinion for the most part.


I went down this path because I was stating that it is our own personal bias on the issue of what we personally see as right and wrong, and not our character preference, that is clouding our posts. The bias exists but not because of characters.

I said in my episode review that they did cover both sides and Clark and Chloe both gave ground to the other; I was glad that the episode opened us to such a discussion in the first place.



I honestlly don't know why people are looking at it the way they are. I don't see it as a Chloe vs. Clark thing, but that could just be me. And you. Who knows? *shrug* But, yeah, I think racial profiling and discrimination brings out people's anxieties and this topic touches a nerve.


Not really. It would be like going into a fire safety/training meeting. Those members would have the skills yes, but you have no idea if they have malicious intent/thoughts. It would have been better if he went after Belle Reve or 33.1 MF's since they would have skills/record/motive.

I disagree -- primarily because show canon has gone out of the way to tell us that when you meet a meteor freak, chances are quite high that they're going to crazy and try to kill someone. The meteor freak who manages to get by life without going psycho is rare.... It would make sense that Clark would look at Chloe's list first and then work his way out from there, in terms of suspects.

Plus, he wasn't just focused on meteor freaks... the second MM gave him the head's up on Davis, he went after that guy, too.

And, futhermore, let's not forget that Clark was right. The culprit for - at least some - of the killings was a meteor freak that belonged to Chloe's group. His reasoning was sound and that's why it turned out that way. Because it was the most logical place to start looking for a suspect... a group of kids with powers that might go insane at any minute. They're walking time bombs, according to show canon itself, and Clark is well aware of that.

That's, in fact, what Chloe and he are arguing about: He's convinced that one of them must have snapped (something that is not unheard of and is very likely) and she's convinced that none of them snapped. She's wrong, at the end, and he's right.

Also, I think this sets up an interesting parallel between her and Tess. Tess is gathering, one by one, meteor freaks and counseling them to embrace their powers & use it for evil. Chloe is gathering them, one by one, and counselling them to embrace their powers and use them for good.

But, at the end of the day, we've mainly seen MFs going Tess's route much more than Chloe's route. That's why she even points out the sheer number of MFs she's never managed to save before.


I too feel that the episode handled it well. I'm especially fond of the fact it sparked the discussion in the first place. I also get that Superman is a very conservative poster child (vigilante justice because they are guilty, after all they ARE criminals) and would hold those beliefs even though I don't personally agree with them.

I don't think Superman is a proponent of vigilante justice... that's why he always gets the bad guy without hurting them and turns them over to the right authorities. Even if given a chance, he'll never kill anyone or take the law onto his own hands.

Did he hunt down this killer and do what he had to do get to the bottom of it? Yes. But, then he turned them over the authorities... who turned the kid over to Belle Reeve, who - in turn - turned the kid over to Tess Mercer.

It is, in fact, one of the reasons villians even exist in Superman's world... because he refuses to play God and makes the human justice system deal with them... no matter flawed it is.

In this case, he apologized for the very same thing that future Superman would apologize for: Violating Chloe's trust and acting own his accord without thought to her rights and feelings.

At the end of the day, though, it's not Clark's job to protect the rights of the under-represented. He's not some lawyer or social worker. It's his job to protect humanity - a lot of times from each other. And he has to figure out to balance it so he is as fair as possible, but - at the end of the day - he has to take sides. In this case, he thought the lives of innocent people who were dying at the hands of the serial killer was more important than the privacy of a group of 20-30 meteor freaks. He didn't gather them up and put them in internment camps. He didn't torture them... he didn't scare them. He didn't lock them up. THAT would have been a violation of their rights. He, instead, gave their names to a police officer and that officer went to their houses and asked them some questions. That's it. If they were innocent (and all but one were) they had nothing to worry about.

And, at the end of the day, Clark ended up catching the guy when he tried to kill Davis and after he'd killed again. But Clark was trying to prevent that extra person from being killed and I can't fault him for that. He thought that by going through Chloe's list, it would be worth violating the privacy of those kids to save just ONE more person's life.

That's Superman.

[Animation]

I agree with the original poster. Clark did nothing wrong in this episode, and in fact he did the correct thing at all times. Even when he started digging into Davis' stuff, it was because there was a reason to check (Davis was at all the crime scenes).

Clark and Chloe have ALWAYS done things like "hey there are 38 people in the area that are connected to this, lets check them out" and sometimes one of the 38 is the bad guy, and sometimes none of them are and they then proceed down a different path of investigation. This is what the wall of weird was all about. So Clark was correct.

Anyway, he didnt steal her information, he had already seen it. It is just too bad for Chloe that he can read at super speed and had already seen the names before she took them away.

The only reason he apologized at the end of the episode is because he wanted to save his friendship. His apology is based on diplomacy, and a realization that he does need to be aware of personal boundaries. Still, you know that he still feels he was correct because he does push the point a little (but not too much).

So, yeah, Chloe was WAY too defensive in this one.

Lewis

[abbaspice1]

I lived in NYC, when a Boston woman claimed that a Black man had kipnapped her kid. Well, the Boston cop over-reacted, and pretty much every single Black man was harassed by the cops.

Then, we all learn that the woman was lying.

Then another time, a white man and his brother tried to pin their crimes on Black people. Again int he NE area.

Once again, the cops over-reacted.

Yet, when a suspect of a crime is WHITE, the cops don't go harassing every white male in town. If that was the case, every white man would be harassed everytime their is a serial rapists/killer, since most serial killers/rapists are white males.

What Clark did was wrong. I understand his motivation. But what he did was wrong.

[clarkbunny]

^
Amen!

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


I agree with the original poster. Clark did nothing wrong in this episode, and in fact he did the correct thing at all times. Even when he started digging into Davis' stuff, it was because there was a reason to check (Davis was at all the crime scenes).

Anyway, he didnt steal her information, he had already seen it. It is just too bad for Chloe that he can read at super speed and had already seen the names before she took them away.


Yes Clark did do something wrong in this episode. He stole the list from Chloe without her permission and infringed the group members privacy when there was nothing to link them to the murders. Clark didn't take the actual list from the Isis centre but by memorizing it and reproducing the list later he effectively stole the list.

If I looked over your shoulder while you paid for something with your credit card in a stor and memorised all your credit card details. Then later went online and bought a whole load of stuff using your card details - would it not be theft just because I hadn't stolen your actual physical credit card?

----- Added 25 Minutes later -----


Let's look at the alternative method Clark could have taken to catch a killer...He first goes to the police department and not to detective John Jones and told them that there is a place called Isis where they hold meetings for meteor infected kids. One of their own was murdered after their meeting.

The police will probably get a search warrant and get the attendance list and all the names and records of the meteor infected including the notebook of names she showed Clark. Chloe would have to answer why she doesn't have a license to run the Isis foundation and be a councilor. Lana owns Isis so she will probably be charged along with Chloe and be brought into court. I'm not up on the law but if they find the shadow boy killer they may be subject in aiding the killer because he was a member of her group and also she didn't report the girl had been murdered leaving Isis. Homeland security will probably also be brought in again for Chloe's hacking of government computers. They could find a few more things to charge Chloe with I haven't thought about. The Isis will be closed probably never to open again. Chloe and Lana will take revenge for Clark telling the police and reveal that Clark is an alien from Krypton.

Clark has done his civic duty required by law to tell what he knows about a killing. Of course, he has probably lost some friends but he hasn't broken any law and he didn't take the list.


Your summation of an alternative situation seems to be based on some wild assumtions, however let's look at your points.

Clark would not have gone to the police to tell them that Mary - a member of the group had been killed because he did not know that Mary was part of the Isis group. Neither did he know that one of the group members had been killed - Chloe did not tell him.

Your assumption that the police would get a search warrant for the Isis group is flawed. They had no just cause to suspect that the group members were involved in the murders.
I'm pretty sure Lana had the appropriate licenses in place for the running of the Isis centre. With regards to Chloe, she was holding weekly self help/discussion meetings - you don't need a license for that.

You are right that you are not up on the law Chloe would not be done for aiding and abetting shadowboy as she was not aware that he had killed anyone. It's not like he had confided in her and she was helping to conceal his crime.

Why on earth would the police suddenly bring up Chloe's hacking? Not to mention that Homeland security did not actually look into Chloe's hacking - it was a set up by Lex in order to kidnap Chloe.

What killing would Clark report? The police already knew of all the killings - including Mary's.

----- Added 33 Minutes later -----


And, futhermore, let's not forget that Clark was right. The culprit for - at least some - of the killings was a meteor freak that belonged to Chloe's group. His reasoning was sound and that's why it turned out that way. Because it was the most logical place to start looking for a suspect... a group of kids with powers that might go insane at any minute. They're walking time bombs, according to show canon itself, and Clark is well aware of that.

That's, in fact, what Chloe and he are arguing about: He's convinced that one of them must have snapped (something that is not unheard of and is very likely) and she's convinced that none of them snapped. She's wrong, at the end, and he's right.


No the Isis group was not the most logical place to start as there was no evidence to link the group members to the crimes. There was nothing to make the Isis group stand out as THE most logical place to start. It was A place to start if only because it offered a group of known meteor infected people in one place but NOT the most logical place to start.

Clark and Chloe were not arguing about whether one of the group members had snapped. They were arguing about Clark targeting the group's members as suspects when he had no evidence to link them to the killings. Chloe was trying to protect her members' privacy.

[Fallen One]

They were last people seen with her- they needed to be questioned. Period.

And if they think that simply because one police officer asks you a question about someone you call your friend/aquiantance or what have you is harrassment, then that makes them not only suspicious but idiots as well.

When someone who just left you ends up dead, common sense says you will be asked questions. If they think they're somehow above this then they must be living under a rock or on a different planet. Fortunately, reality struck these kids right in the face.

What we have here is a case of a bunch of childish people overreacting to someone trying to find out who killed someone they knew. And a wanna-be mother figure who is horrible at her job, jumping on Clark just to prove her loyalty to them and keep them coming to her bogus meetings.

Clark solved a crimed, Chloe was just trying to save her job and reputation. His motives were selfless, hers were selfish.

He was right, she was wrong.

[clarkbunny]

^
Your argument is flawed - you are speaking from the viewpoint of the viewer and not of the police or Clark.

The police and Clark did not know that Mary was a member of the Isis group. Don't forget the list Clark took was from the day after Mary was killed - so her name would not have been on there. All Clark or the police knew was that Mary was killed, they did not know she was part of he Isis group therefore there was NO connection between the group members and the killings.

Clark was no trying to find out who had killed Mary, he was trying to find out who was responsible for the Ace of Clubs incident which had no connection to Isis. As such he had no just cause to suspect the Isis members and no evidence to connect them to the crime. It was just CONVENIENT for him to look into the Isis group members as it was a (HE THOUGHT) readily available list of meteor freaks that he could investigate first. However as there was no evidence to link them to the crime based on what he knew it was unfair for him to target them above any other meteor freak in Metropolis - which is why Chloe was protecting her members. Chloe was right and Clark was wrong.

[eas]

No the Isis group was not the most logical place to start as there was no evidence to link the group members to the crimes. There was nothing to make the Isis group stand out as THE most logical place to start. It was A place to start if only because it offered a group of known meteor infected people in one place but NOT the most logical place to start.

Clark and Chloe were not arguing about whether one of the group members had snapped. They were arguing about Clark targeting the group's members as suspects when he had no evidence to link them to the killings. Chloe was trying to protect her members' privacy.

I think that the whole concept of "MF = Most Likely a Person who will Snap" is really what it was all about.

Show canon has told us - over the course of SEVEN years - that the majority of meteor freaks cannot handle their powers and there is some sort of side effect to the mutation that makes them go insane. The exceptions to this have been few and far between - Chloe being the most notable exception.

Basically, that makes 1) The Isis group members a VERY logical place to start and 2) The argument between Chloe and Clark to be about whether or not these kids were capable of being serial killers.

Clark was going based off of everything he'd seen over the years and hedging his bets that a group of kids with meteor powers = trouble. Chloe was looking at it from the angle that not ALL kids have to end up this way (after all, she didn't) so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

At the end of the day, Clark didn't TORTURE them. HE didn't even question them - a cop did. He didn't round them up and stick them in jail until proven innocent. He didn't stalk or harrass them.

ONE cop went to their homes and asked them some questions. That's life... they were suspects (for whatever reason, we don't really need a good one, honestly) and the cop decided to rule them out before moving on to other suspects... and JJ did. He also brought up Davis, meaning he's wasn't solely going to focus on the MFs. He was just doing his job -- looking into ALL people who may be responsible & yes, given the past history of every MF in town, I think a group of MF kids near the area of the serial killings was a good place to start.

It may seem mean and out of line. But, guess what? That happens all the time with investigations. Cops don't care about your feelings. And nor should they.

[Guidron]

If the show has shown us anything, it's that Chloe has always been afraid that she'll go insane due to 1) Her mother and 2) Her meteor infection. I think this is probably a factor in how she reacted to Clark's request for the names.

Chloe has to believe that not all meteor infected people are evil, because she's one of them. Hence, when Clark's first instinct is to check out her clients, she gets defensive.

[SnowBird]

It just seems to me that we keep going around and around with the same arguments and no one is being swayed by the other. The facts are Clark wanted the list to help solve the crimes. There was one of Chloe's MF kids that was a murderer so it wasn't far fetched for Clark to get the names. Chloe got defensive. Chloe got blamed by her kids for turning them in. Chloe got mad at Clark for taking the list and said how brave the MF kids were and called Clark a coward for not coming forward himself. They both said and done things that were out of character. Clark apologized. Chloe didn't. Clark and Chloe are still friends. Clark caught the shadow kid killer from Chloe's group. Doomsday is still out there. The end. I may not have everything in the right order. We can keep debating who was right and who was wrong but I'm going to stop and say that Clark is still not a jerk which is the topic of this thread.

[Kevin24]

Clarkbunny is basically saying that keeping information private takes priority over saving lives.

I think we all agree that Clark went about getting the information the wrong way. So, I don't know what the argument is here?

Was he wrong in taking the list from Chloe when she told him no? Yes he was.

Clark was so consumed with saving lives that he completely ignored what Chloe said and did what he had to do to save lives. His judgment wasn't the best but he did what he did because he wanted to prevent more people from dying.

He was wrong for taking the list but his reasoning behind was not wrong.

I think Clarkbunnny that even you can agree that he just wanted to save lives thus that does not make him a jerk. Even you have to agree he had a good reason.

[redRound]

^
Your argument is flawed - you are speaking from the viewpoint of the viewer and not of the police or Clark.

The police and Clark did not know that Mary was a member of the Isis group. Don't forget the list Clark took was from the day after Mary was killed - so her name would not have been on there. All Clark or the police knew was that Mary was killed, they did not know she was part of he Isis group therefore there was NO connection between the group members and the killings.

Clark was no trying to find out who had killed Mary, he was trying to find out who was responsible for the Ace of Clubs incident which had no connection to Isis. As such he had no just cause to suspect the Isis members and no evidence to connect them to the crime. It was just CONVENIENT for him to look into the Isis group members as it was a (HE THOUGHT) readily available list of meteor freaks that he could investigate first. However as there was no evidence to link them to the crime based on what he knew it was unfair for him to target them above any other meteor freak in Metropolis - which is why Chloe was protecting her members. Chloe was right and Clark was wrong.
You argue your points very well, and I agree that Chloe was right to withhold the list. I thought it was presumptuous of Clark to expect her to just hand it over. She may not have doctor/patient confidentiality, but when running a counselling service she surely has some kind of privacy agreement. Just look at the privacy policy of KryptonSite, (or Google, or any other website). Unless he's compelled by law to hand over information, I expect Craig to keep my details to himself. So I don't think Chloe did anything wrong. But Clark has always been quick to accuse the easy target. Remember how he use to blame Lex for everything?

This seems like a question of does the ends justify the means. Something that Lex and Clark had many discussions about. If Clark memorises a list -- and in so doing infringes on people's privacy rights, and employs discriminatory tactics -- to catch a murderer, is it okay?

I'm not entirely against Clark's actions, but it's interesting that in an attempt to explain what Clark did, many people are using the arguments that Lex was often condemned for making. That that MFs, and aliens, are dangerous, and that sometimes you need to do unethical/unlawful/unpopular things to protect society.

It's seems that people are willing to open the door of ends justifying the means for Clark, but keep it firmly shut for others, (Lex). Hypocrisy? And doesn't this make Clark a God? It's interesting. Many of us are assuming that Clark is going to grow into the boyscout Superman, but he may not. He could be lobotomising Doomsday in episode 20 and we get something quite different. Maybe this is the beginning of that journey.

I found Clark a bit insolent during the scene, (which ties in with my issue of the way he spoke to Davis at the hospital, and his investigating skills), but I can see things from all their points of view. Chloe wants to protect the MFs who reach out for help from ostracism and discrimination, so she defends them against Clark's questionable attentions. Clark wants to protect the city from a murderer, so he takes the list to explore all avenues of inquiry. Lex wants to protect mankind from an alien invasion, so he creates a super-powered army and other weapons to help defend us. Each feel they are just in doing what they do, and I personally can understand each position.

[clarkbunny]

Kevin24
Jerk wasn't my term it was the thread poster's term. I definitely feel he behaved poorly and in an arrogant manner for the most part of the episode. But the redeeming factor was that he realised the error of his ways and was man enough to apologise. Which shows growth. He is not a bad person.

I am not saying that privacy is MORE important than saving lives - more it is just AS important as saving lives and that privacy laws/rights should not be overlooked in the pursuit of justice/saving lives - they are there for a reason.

Either way in terms of this episode Clark taking the list had no impact on catching shadowboy or the Ace of Clubs killer. It was just a coincidence that Davis and Jimmy happened to go out to shadowboy's latest murder scene.

[Kevin24]

Kevin24
I am not saying that privacy is MORE important than saving lives - more it is just AS important as saving lives


I disagree

[old guy]

Originally Posted by clarkbunny
Kevin24
I am not saying that privacy is MORE important than saving lives - more it is just AS important as saving lives

I disagree

Thanks Kevin. And if I or my family were dying, I admit I'd much rather have someone who values life first and foremost on my side. If someone let my family die but said "don't worry, I did protect someone else's privacy instead, I'd say "OK."

then I'd remove their teeth from their mouth and return it to them.

[smallvillerocks45]

^
Your argument is flawed - you are speaking from the viewpoint of the viewer and not of the police or Clark.

The police and Clark did not know that Mary was a member of the Isis group. Don't forget the list Clark took was from the day after Mary was killed - so her name would not have been on there. All Clark or the police knew was that Mary was killed, they did not know she was part of he Isis group therefore there was NO connection between the group members and the killings.

Clark was no trying to find out who had killed Mary, he was trying to find out who was responsible for the Ace of Clubs incident which had no connection to Isis. As such he had no just cause to suspect the Isis members and no evidence to connect them to the crime. It was just CONVENIENT for him to look into the Isis group members as it was a (HE THOUGHT) readily available list of meteor freaks that he could investigate first. However as there was no evidence to link them to the crime based on what he knew it was unfair for him to target them above any other meteor freak in Metropolis - which is why Chloe was protecting her members. Chloe was right and Clark was wrong.


How can you say that Clark wasn't looking for Mary's killer? When Clark was giving John Jones the list of Isis Group members, he was telling him that he has read up on the five killings (which included Mary). Maybe he did not specifically say, "I am looking for the Ace of Clubs perpetrator and the serial killer who has been attacking people," but when Clark said he had been searching for the person responsible for the five killings, I felt it was implied that Mary was included in that list. Moreover, when Clark went to confront Davis, Davis told Clark that he'd heard about one of Chloe's Isis members being killed - clearly Clark must have known about her.

Now I'm all for privacy, and sure, Clark should not have taken the list without Chloe's permission, but if you're arguing that Clark made an unfounded jump link from the Ace of Clubs incident to the Isis foundation and that Mary's death was not even considered in Clark's logic, I disagree. From my perception - as far as I understood the episode layout - Clark was lumping the serial murders and the Ace of Clubs investigations into one. Sure, the Isis list was convenient, but it was also a good lead. If the cause of the event was "special," he could have looked at a variety of places and he just happened to start at the Isis Foundation, but had he been wrong, he would have had to look elsewhere. It just turned out that he didn't need to dig deeper.

Ultimately, I don't think Clark was prejudiced, and I certainly don't think he's a jerk. I felt his apology was just in that he did betray his friend's trust and I think Clark learned a lot in this episode.

[IloveClark]

Clark was right though.And he's right about Davis too.

[AndiGirl]

A lot of people in this thread are missing the big picture. He was trying to save LIVES! LIVES! One of the most precious things we have! OUR LIFE!

When it comes to saving lives wouldn't you as a person in the universe of smallville want the police to follow every possible lead they have to find the serial killer?

Would you rather the cops let the killer keep killing until the killer leaves enough clues so that he could be identified and then apprehended? Even though this whole time they had a list they could use to catch the killer sooner and save those people who would have been murdered if they didn't?

Isn't that a bit selfish? That you think keeping your information private is more important then a human life?

So you rather someone potentially die then have police question you to help them find the killer?

If a cop came with a warrant you are going to hand the list over anyway. Why not give it to the most powerful and most honorable and trustworthy person you know have the list and catch the killer?

I sure did ask a lot of questions:lol:

I would agree with you...except my problem with all of this is...Clark taking the list didnt better the invesitgation one bit. The only reason they found the killer was purely accidental! Jimmy and Davis stumble across him...thats it.

I do think lives are more important than privacy...but I also think we have a system for a reason. All Clark had to go off of was whoever was committing these crimes were of the meteor infected persuasion.

What would he have done if Chloe wasnt running Isis?? He used her work place position against her, and thats just not right. Plus he violated those kids' rights. As a counselor she has an obligation to keep things confidental and I honestly dont think I would have done anything differently then here.

Now...before you all kill me, its not for the reasons you think. Clark was right to try and find the killer...and I love that he's being proactive, but like MM said...he has to know his lines and what he shouldnt cross.

He was blindly accusing people. The police find facts and go from there...and all clark had was whoever was doing this was meteor infected. So what if the only amo he had was....I dont know....whoever was doing it.....was bald!! (yes, channeling lex a bit! :lol:) Would it be go ok for him to go around grabbing all of the bald people and put them on a list?

My point is...Clark was type casting. He hand no solid proof against any of those kids...and pointing fingers for the sake of pointing fingers isnt heroic. It's lazy and cowardice. He had no better ideas...so he sunk to a low level.

He even admitts that...so why are ppl on here having such a hard time accepting that? :confused:

Just like Chloe admitts she messed up. Neither of them were perfect by any means. Clark shouldnt jump the gun and aimlessly accuse ppl...and Chloe has to trust Clarks judgement.

But saying clarks actions were heroic is stretching it a bit to me. He had good intentions, but even a hero has to use logic and not just brawn all the time.:)

[SnowBird]

We have a new episode to debate about tonight so this will be my last entry in this thread. Everyone has had some very good arguments. It seems most of us agree on one thing and that is...Clark should not have taken the "List" without Chloe's permission. He even apologized for his actions. After we agree on this one issue there is a great divide and it's like one group of people are on one end of a rope and another group of people are on the other end of a rope and we have a tug of war. There was no clear winner but we did have an interesting debate...Of course, I have to say one more time for the big guy that Clark was not a jerk but his obsession to catch the killers was evident and all is forgiven between friends. In the end he was our hero once again in catching the bad guy...See you next time. Take Care:)

[clarkbunny]

How can you say that Clark wasn't looking for Mary's killer? When Clark was giving John Jones the list of Isis Group members, he was telling him that he has read up on the five killings (which included Mary). Maybe he did not specifically say, "I am looking for the Ace of Clubs perpetrator and the serial killer who has been attacking people," but when Clark said he had been searching for the person responsible for the five killings, I felt it was implied that Mary was included in that list. Moreover, when Clark went to confront Davis, Davis told Clark that he'd heard about one of Chloe's Isis members being killed - clearly Clark must have known about her.

Now I'm all for privacy, and sure, Clark should not have taken the list without Chloe's permission, but if you're arguing that Clark made an unfounded jump link from the Ace of Clubs incident to the Isis foundation and that Mary's death was not even considered in Clark's logic, I disagree. From my perception - as far as I understood the episode layout - Clark was lumping the serial murders and the Ace of Clubs investigations into one. Sure, the Isis list was convenient, but it was also a good lead. If the cause of the event was "special," he could have looked at a variety of places and he just happened to start at the Isis Foundation, but had he been wrong, he would have had to look elsewhere. It just turned out that he didn't need to dig deeper.

Ultimately, I don't think Clark was prejudiced, and I certainly don't think he's a jerk. I felt his apology was just in that he did betray his friend's trust and I think Clark learned a lot in this episode.

Clark was looking for the Ace of Clubs killer when he went to the Isis centre, he said so when he spoke to Chloe. How would he know that Mary was a member of the Isis foundation? Chloe didn't tell him. For all intents and purposes to the police and Clark, Mary was just another victim - they wouldn't even have known she was meteor infected.

I don't think the Isis list was a good lead. The meteor infected are a group of people - a section of the community like an ethnic group. Just because a group of them are meeting together does not make them a better lead than the rest of the group of people that don't attend the meetings.

If Clark had known that a member of the group was killed then they would be a good place to start. Even so he wouldn't have been right to take the list, he should have asked Chloe to get them to talk to the police about if they knew anything.

[Hoshi_Reed]

I don't think Superman is a proponent of vigilante justice... that's why he always gets the bad guy without hurting them and turns them over to the right authorities. Even if given a chance, he'll never kill anyone or take the law onto his own hands.
Not always. A few examples:
http://www.redboots.net/comics/dailies.htm
He chided Lois for being emotional and coddling the criminals before he got a code of conduct.


How can you say that Clark wasn't looking for Mary's killer?

The point is: How did he know Mary was a MF? How did he know she was a part of the Group before her death? How did he know that the Isis group would have information on Mary's death? Without this info/lead, questioning the people of the group is not logical. People who said he is after Mary's killer said he went after the list because they knew her and were the last to see her alive and therefore logical suspects to question.

[The Krypton Knight]

The only thing he was a jerk about was belittling Chloe's new life by saying he wasn't going to waste time on the Kumbayah. That was pretty unkind and OOC.

I agree with Sue. When I heard him say that, I was like "Huh? Tell me this isn't Bizarro again" lol.